Who were the parents of Alice Beauchamp, wife of Ralph Arderne?

Question

The profile of Ralph Arderne, born 1252, shows two different wives named Alice Beauchamp, each with different parents.  Was there only one wife?  If so, who were her parents?

Comments

John,

In a quick search in the Gen-Medieval archives at Rootsweb, I came across a discussion from September 2010 with regard to Ralph d'Arderne, son of Thomas d'Arderne and Lucy de Say.   Check it out here:  http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2010-09/1284095318

Follow through the various posts.  The one above is a posting by Douglas Richardson, author of Magna Carta Ancestry.  If you're going to find your answer (and I'm wondering now if the Ralph d'Arderne you mention was married to Alice de Beauchamp), your best bet will be either in the Gen-Medieval archives or in the newer Google Group soc.genealogy.medieval on Rootsweb.  Those are my 'go to' places when I'm researching ancestors from that era.

Darlene 

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Thank you, Darlene.  Looking through that thread, it appears that there were three different Ralph d'Ardernes all in the same family.  It appears that the Ralph who married Isabelle Mortimer was the son of another Ralph and the uncle of the Ralph who allegedly married Alice Beauchamp.  I added a couple links from that thread to Ralph's profile, which will have to do for now; this one looks like quite a headache.

Answer 1

According to Jim Weber, who does a LOT of research with regard to these medieval families, Alice was the daughter of Lord of Hache Robert de Beauchamp V (b 1223 - b 1263) and Alice de Mohun.  See here:  http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I13491

He's good about having references on everything, so you can see his sources.

Comments

*sigh*  Thanks for that, but Jim Weber cites a speculative source that depends on an unquoted document that was apparently made around the time of the birth of Ralph and Alice (1245) as evidence of their marriage.  That doesn't pass the smell test, unless the (unquoted) document refers to a betrothal when both Ralph and Alice were infants, which still provides no evidence that a marriage took place years later.

Answer 2

According to geni.com her parents were John De Beauchamp and Cecilia (De Vivonne) De Beauchamp. This does not show Ralph De Arden being married more than once but that does not mean it simply has not been documented.  This Ralph De Arden was 1267-1290 and his parents were Sir Thomas De Arden 1236-? and Lucia Rosa De Arden. 1240-1288 so possibly profiles for another Ralph and Alice De Arden and not the information you are looking for?   Alice would have been a first cousin 23 times removed to me.

 

 

Comments

Thanks Pamela, that page helped me figure out what's going on here.  This is definitely the same couple -- Ralph Arderne and Alice Beauchamp, but geni.com has shifted their birthdates to make Alice the daughter (and not the sister) of John Beauchamp; but Alice supposedly died in 1273, which if true would make the later birth year impossible.   The generally-but-not-always-reliable Celtic Casimir family tree cites Darlene's source, which of course doesn't prove anything; see http://www.celtic-casimir.com/webtree/5/17777.htm

This Celtic Casimir family tree shows that Philippa Arderne who married John Drayton was the granddaughter (not daughter) of Ralph and Alice.  And googling around the internet, I found this site http://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p524.htm#i15749 which mentions a couple of sources making Philippa a daughter of a different Ralph Arderne (one of the other Ralphs mentioned in the soc.medieval discussion that Darlene shared).

Conclusion:  the internet sources for this family are poorly-sourced with conflicting information, apparently based on guesswork by genealogists who haven't found clear evidence for this lineage.

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John,

I did more searching through my records after these posts and located this particular Ralph in my database under 'Ralph Arden of Hanwell.'  I have him born c 1272 and son of Sir Thomas Arden of Drayton and Rose Vernon.  He married Alice de Beauchamp, daughter of Sir John de Beauchamp and Cecily de Vivonne.  She was born after 1276.  

Son of Ralph and Alice was Ralph Arden 'of Park Hall' who married Isabel de Bromwich.  

Source for all of this is Jim Weber; he cites VCH - Oxford:. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk

With that said, I'm not sure what's on Wikitree is correct.  I have two separate 'Arden' groups -- one is from Sussex and is d'Arderne, while the other is Arden and was in Oxfordshire.  If this is correct, the Ralph d'Arderne whom this posts is concerning (Arderne-30) is mislabeled with parents...

The Sir Thomas Arden of Drayton I mentioned above (who married Rose Vernon) I have as son of William Arden of Radbourne, son of Thomas Arden of Drayton, son of William Arden, son of Henry Arden, son of Suvardus de Arden, son of Turchill de Warwick of Kingsbury.

The Ardernes that people have on Wikitree show no sources, so I wouldn't give much weight to them...

Darlene