Clarifying connection from Neville/Beauchamp family to St.John family through Iwardby family.

+6 votes
705 views

The way the connection from the Neville family, to the St John family here, is handled and interpreted differently to the majority of peerages which I find, which raises the question of how this particular Iwardby family should be presented, and what sources can we find to back up how this family is presented.

For starters, Burke's leaves the situation open, which doesn't answer the issue. (In that Jane (Joan) Iwardby is presented as John Iwardby's daughter, and without a listed mother. Katherine Neville is listed as John's wife, but not as Jane's mother. The two possibilities are that John married twice, firstly to Katherine Neville, and secondly to Jane's mother, Sanctia Carew (but I can't see any sources to suggest that this is the case). The second possibility as listed by other peerages, is that there are two generations of John Iwardby here, the first married to Katherine Neville, producing a John Iwardby who married Sanctia Carew, and had Jane Iwardby. But I'm not sure that these peerages are as reliable as Burke's, which itself doesn't seem to be exactly sure.

This is of personal interest to me, because it is the connection by which Viscount Molesworth-131 and Coote-252, provide a royal line to Princess Diana, and Countess Sophie Rhys Jones. The royal connection being from the Coote family, through the St.George family, and St.John family, through the Iwardby's to Neville, and King Edward III. But this is irrelevant, what is important is the facts.

The other thing is. The name Iwardby (which is the Burke's spelling), appears as Inwardby, and elsewhere in other spellings. Should we try to pick a consistent spelling. I have noticed elsewhere, that Burke's can often be wrong with spelling, so I wouldn't automatically assume that its choice should necessarily be the preferred.

Thank you for your time. Hopefully we can have a clear outcome here.

Links: http://www.thepeerage.com/p104.htm#i1034

http://www.fabpedigree.com/s040/f513523.htm

http://www.shieldsgenealogy.com/d0007/g0000094.html#125366

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/hants/vol4/pp443-445 paragraph between the picture of the Missenden shield, and the Iwardby shield, with footnotes 28-33.

WikiTree profile: John Iwardby
in Genealogy Help by Ben Molesworth G2G6 Pilot (162k points)
Concerning the spelling I do not recall it but I see I was involved in some discussion about it previously as was Kirk Hess. Apparently we were against the inclusion of the "n" - maybe because of Richardson?

Any chance the family will be in CP somewhere?
Sorry, I'm not sure what CP is. It might be interesting to see what I can find on the Carew family, as they seemed to add wives to this family for at least three generations.

CP is the common abbreviation for a reference work, The Complete Peerage. The Wikipedia article has links to all of the 1st edition and some of the 2nd edition. Familysearch has links to digital version of the 2nd edition.

On the name - Wikitree does not deal well with how surnames had a more fluid spelling than today. So LNAB Iwardby, OLN of Inwardby, Ewerby. 

The PM is not pre-1500 certified so he probably can't change the LNAB? If someone could do something about that it would be helpful.

8 Answers

+4 votes
 
Best answer

Another pedigree - The History and Antiquities of the County of Buckingham, v. 1 p. 395

There's no indication that John Iwardby and Katherine Missenden had another son John, but it says his father was the son of John Iwardby, Esq. of Maple-Durham, co. Oxon. No VCH article on that parish, but there's a book The Early History of Mapledurham, which has a few pages on this family according to the preview, and page 53 seems to have something to do with the original question.  Once I get my hands on the book I'll post a summary here. 

If someone could check if Richardson already cited these two sources I would appreciate it. 

by Kirk Hess G2G6 Mach 7 (72.1k points)
selected by Ben Molesworth

yes, both are listed in the bibliography for Katherine Missenden's entry in Magna Carta Ancestry, volume IV, page 391 YALE 9.

Katherine Missenden, and John Iwardby (or Ewardby) are listen in Richardson's Royal Ancestry, volume V, page 435 YALE 14.

There is a one sentence that mentions John Iwardby of Mapledurham here https://www.victoriacountyhistory.ac.uk/sites/default/files/work-in-progress/2._manors_ed_st_25.9.17.pdf (see bottom of page 2) but it sounds like he had control of Mapledurham only through the rights of his wife (maybe second wife?) Joan, and her rights were only as the widow of her first husband, William Lynde.

There's a really long court case between John Iwardby 'the elder' and Richard Fowler, over the guardianship (or at least the land) of John Iwardby the minor son of Nicholas.

I don't have time to look at it closely, have to head off to work but it's in Volume 1 of Calendar of Proceedings of Chancery during the reign of Queen Elizabeth.

From Early History of Mapledurham, The Lyndes and the Iwardbys, pp. 52-53:

So this source says John and Katherine had two sons name John, the 2nd one survived, m. Sancia Carew.

"The succession to the manor of Mapledurham Gurney was secured, not for John Iwardby's son John, but for his stepson Thomas Lynde. Of John Iwardby the younger we know not more than he married into the distinguished family of the Nevilles. His wife Katherine Neville was the da. of Edward, Lord Bargavenny(sic), grandson of John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster by Edward Beauchamp, heiress of the Despencers. Katherine Iwardby was therefore first cousin to Richard Neville, Earl of Warwick, 'the kingmaker', whose father Richard Neville, Earl of Salisbury (executed in 1460) and Edward, Baron Bargavenny were brothers. It seems strange that John Iwardby, a mere commoner, should marry a lady of such distinguished connexion. But there may be some significance in the fact that Richard Beauchamp, fifth Earl of Warwick, father of Anne Beauchamp, RIchard Nevile's wife, once lived at Caversham. Anne Beauchamp and Elizabeth Beauchamp (Katherine Neville's mother) were both daughters of Isabel Despencer by different husbands.

John Iwardby the younger, like his father, was probably buried in Mapledurham Church. A window in the chancel commemerated him, his wife, and a son named  John who died in infancy but the dates of their deaths are not known: see further p. 127.  Another son, also named John, married Saunchia, daughter and heir of Nicholas Carew of Beddington, Surrey, and from them is said to have sprung the Surrey branch of hte family, one of whom was commemorated by a brass at Ewell in that county. (Manning, Oxford Journ. Monum. Brasses, i. 287 f.)"

Sanche gets a mention here

https://books.google.com/books?id=8JcbV309c5UC&pg=PA193 #10

though we aren't told which was her offensive weapon of choice.

Since James was heir male of his nephew, she was presumably James's niece, and claimed as heir general.

* Nicholas Carew #1, m Isabel de la Mare
** Nicholas #2, b 1405, d 1458, m (?bef 1435) Margaret Fiennes
*** Nicholas #3
**** Nicholas #4, d by 1486
**** Sanche, m by 1486 John Iwardby "formerly of Ewell" [Fitznells]
*** James, 2nd son, heir male to his nephew

Which tells us she was born any time between 1440 and 1465+ and could have been the right age to marry either a son or a grandson of John Iwardby the elder.

Still not helping.

+5 votes

According to another source from British History Online https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/berks/vol3/pp417-422 Joan was the daughter of Sir John Iwardby and his wife Sanchea Carew (see near end of paragraph after Carew arms).

However a bigger problem is where does Sir John Iwardby fit into the genealogy.

According to the Inquisitions Post Mortem, (see no. 6 and 8) John Iwardby, esq. died 22 Aug 1485 (maybe at the Battle of Bosworth?) leaving 3 daughters; Elizabeth, Margaret and Ellen, aged 10, 8 and 6 as his heirs.  Which means Sir John Iwardby can't be his son as in the link to BHO in link in the original question.

I notice there is a comment on one of the profiles that Sir John Iwardby is the nephew of John Iwardby, esq. but I would like to see sources that confirm that.

by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (622k points)

Genealogics: 

John Iwardby, of Fitznells, Surrey (d. 1525)

He m. 3 times, a son John (dsp) by Katherine Neville and a da. Jane by Sancia Carew (mentioned above). 

The John Iwardby, 'the younger', of Quainton, Bucks. who d. in 1485 was his nephew. 

If you use this pedigree this would break the connection to the St. John family through the Nevilles. There's a source mentioned, The Carews of Beddington, which has a pedigree in appendix III, and the Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Edinburgh, 1977, Paget, Gerald. 

Manor of Fitznells, Ewell, Surrey: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/surrey/vol3/pp278-284

"His son Richard (Leversegge) was imbecile from his birth, but held the estate in demesne as of fee until 10 June 1438, on which day John Iwardby (alias Everby) took possession and was succeeded by his son John, who affirmed that his father held the manor of the gift of Robert Leversegge. In 1542 it was held by Dame Joan St. John, who was daughter and heir of Sir John Iwardby..."

Note the rose cadence in the arms is missing in this citation
Iwardby. Argent a saltire engrailed sable and a chief sable with two molets argent therein.

vs. Farley Chamberlayne

Iwardby. Argent a saltire engrailed sable with a rose argent thereon and a chief sable with two pierced molets argent therein.

+4 votes

Hmm.  Richardson says (under Yale) that John Iwardby (who married Katherine Missenden) died 1470 leaving a son and heir Nicholas who apparently succeeded to the estates and died in 1462.  Something wrong somewhere.

VCH on Overbury in Great Missenden seems clear that Nicholas did in fact succeed his father

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/bucks/vol2/pp347-353

Tim Powys-Lybbe

http://www.tim.ukpub.net/pl_tree/ps21/ps21_162.html

reckons the John who died in 1470 had been a Treasury clerk for 60 years, so clearly an old man.  This can't be squared with Leo's version, which makes John d 1470 a younger brother of Nicholas.

Richardson goes on to say that Nicholas's widow Elizabeth married Thomas Salendine and they both died in 1466.  Nicholas's son John was born 1449.

Which is hard to square with the 1474 fine quoted here

http://www.fortunatusfamilia.com.au/getperson.php?personID=I00215&tree=tree1

Tempting to think this is misdated and should be 1464.  But John son of Nicholas wouldn't have been of age by 1466.

This isn't helping is it.

by Living Horace G2G6 Pilot (635k points)
To the contrary. The more sources we throw at this, the easier it will be to get a clearer picture in the end.
Of course Nicholas was the heir of his mother in the Bucks properties.  His father only had them by courtesy and could have released them without being dead.  Perhaps the VCH writer assumed too much.
In that last one, "Fitznells Cartulary, edited by C.A.F. Meekings and Philip Shearman, published in 1968 as Surrey Record Society, Vol. 26. On pages cx-cxxiv of that book is a good account of the Iwardby family."

I'll see if I can review that one too.

Ok so that Tim Powys-Lybbe link says Joan (Annesley-88) was the mother of John Iwardby. She m. (1) William Lynde-125 and (2) John Iwardby.

Hoping one of these books has a citation I can use and I'll do it in a day or two. Feel free if you are confident this is right, thanks!

A summary of Fitznells Cartulary (uses the spelling 'Iwardeby'):

Lay exchequer officers commonly came from the families of the minor gentry and began their careers as boy clerks at about 15.

John Iwardby was first found in a teller's roll Easter term 1406, presumably a young underclerk, so ~15 years old, b. c. 1390. He eventually was the writer of the tallies until 23 Jun 1463. 

He m. (1) betw. Oct 1420 and Feb 1421 Katherine (b. 8 Sep 1408) Katherine Missenden. She brought the manors of Brakenburgh, Kelsthorn and Saltfleetby, co. Lincoln, Great Missendne, Queynton and Swanborough, co. Bucks. She d. 10 July 1436, they had 2 s. and 2 da. 

The main line was continued by the eldest, and probably only survivingson Nicholas succeeded to the estates in co. Lincoln and co. Bucks, d. 2 Jun 1462, apparently in prison in the Fleet jail. His son John, was b. 12 Oct 1449, proved his age Oct 1473, d. 22 Aug 1485, prob. at Bosworth, 3 da. and coheiresses.

John m.(2) betw 28 Nov 1438 and 14 Nov 1439, Jane da. of Hugh Annesley of co. Nottingham and relic of William Lynde of Mapledurham, co. Oxford. They had a son b. c. 1440 John (who we're spending all this time correcting!). 

John our long lived treasury clerk d. 16 Aug 1470, bur. at Mapledurham. By settlement he had retained the Missenden manor of Farley Chamberlayne, co. Hants and the estate in and near Guildford, which passed to our John who on 10 April 1474 received quit claim from his nephew John

Here, he's married 3 times. which we've gone over: (1) Katherine Neville (2) Sancia Carew (3) Jane Agmondesham (d. 8 May 1519)

More in the next comment... 

The logic here is that Katherine was born betw. 1430 and 1447, and d. before 1476, possibly bef. 1470. She's commemorated at Mapledurham but John's half-brother Thomas Lynde succeeded when their mother Jane d. 29 Nov 1476 so that was when the Iwardby connection ended. The guess is the marriage was arranged in the late 1450s.

John was then firmly rooted in Surrey, JP 1483-1518, although he, like his father, lived in London most of the time. He's mentioned as John Iwardby of London, gent. in two court cases. He m. bef 1485 Sancia, no date mentioned for his 3rd wife who d. 8 May 1519 commemorated at Ewell where she m. her 2nd husband Nicholas Saunder, and they had 3 da.

The rest of this section is very detailed and eventually gets into the Cartulary. The minor gentry were able to get particular jobs like this which had a steady income and allowed them to acquire property and status. John the treasury official clearly lived in Westminster or London when he was working and it is not clear where he lived in town but the author guesses the pleas or deeds and manorial records might have more information. Otherwise, he resided at his wives manors Great Missenden, and Mapledurham.

More details: this during the War of the Roses so he like his colleagues sought a general pardon 11 Feb 1462, and it lists his aliases, in order: Iwardeby, Ewardby, Ewardeby.  His grandson also sought a pardon, with the Iwardeby spelling. The inscription on his memorial also apparently used the Iwardeby spelling. His last will was never proved in the perogative court of Cantebury, nor the London Hustings court.
+3 votes
So then, under this answer, can we list the things we know for sure, then whoever is pre-1500 can get the profiles to align with the sources.
by Ben Molesworth G2G6 Pilot (162k points)
Burke's Peerage lists Sir John Iwardby (of Farley Chamberlayne, Hampshire, England, and Quainton, Buckinghamshire, England,) as husband of Catherine Neville, (daughter of Edward Neville, (1st Baron of Abergavenny) and Elizabeth nee Beauchamp, (Baroness Bergavenny.)(To confuse things further. It seems that Edward Neville had Catherine Neville to Elizabeth nee Beauchamp, and Katherine Neville to Katherine nee Howard. Which is already reflected on Wikitree.)) and father of Joan Iwardby, (who married Sir John St John, (whose parents are Oliver St John and Elizabeth nee Scrope.))

This is a confusing tree and Burke's has the wrong place, he's was not connected to Quainton that was his namesake nephew. I think more accurately he's "of London" but his seat was probably the manor of Fitznells in Ewell, Surrey which his father purchased and considering he was a JP in that county. He also had a manor house at Farley Chamberlayne, Hants. Both passed to his da. Joan. 

Is it common for Burke's to be so far off. Because, I guess to the beginners, which I was not that long ago, they are the big go to.
The market for genealogy has mostly been vanity-based.  Burke's was sold to the gentry themselves.  Every family had its official story, and wanted it in official circulation.  And people needed to know what other people's official story was.

If the "baronet" was a pretender, you'd find out on the grapevine.  But if you met him, you'd have no idea.  And you certainly didn't want the plebs to know.
+5 votes
Sorry, not sure if this helps, but this source does confirm John and Sanche were married in 1486. RA vol. I, page 359 Beville 16.

In 1486 John Iwardby, Gent., formerly of Ewell, Surrey, and Sanche his wife, Edward Iwardby, Gent., formerly of Ewell, Surrey, and Elizabeth his wife, were attached to answer both the king and James Carew, Esq.; the said James complained that on 12 Jan. 1485/6 the aforesaid John, Sanche, Edward, Elizabeth, and others had entered with force and arms, to wit, with swords, staves, bows, and arrows, etc. into the manors of Beddington, Norbury, and Bandon, Surrey, which belonged to the said James, and had driven out and disseised him James of the same in contempt of the king. The jury found in favor of the said James and awarded him damages in addition to the costs and expenses at 10 [pounds].

Same also found here [https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/5f35474b-f661-47d0-9ede-89a4ce4af41d]
by Bettye Carroll G2G6 Mach 5 (53.1k points)
edited by Bettye Carroll
Who is Edward Iwardby? He's a new one...

The VCH article on Nutfield lists Sancha's sisters: Anne wife of Christopher Tropenell, and Elizabeth wife of Walter Twynyho.

The Nation Archives: In my search for John Iwardby I got
[https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=John+Iwardby]
Different spelling of Iwardby is Ewerby?

VCH article on Nutfield

The third held by the Ewerbys passed to the family of St. John by the marriage of Joanna the daughter and heir of Sir John Ewerby with John St. John. (fn. 152) The son of John and Joanna, also called John, (fn. 153) presented to the church in 1550, (fn 154) and in 1590 conveyed one moiety of his third to Henry Burton and the other to Walter Cold.

P.S. RA index does not have the spelling Ewerby
The Nutfield article cites an IPM for James's brother Nicholas, d 1466, father of Sancha.

Chan. Inq. p.m. 6 Edw. IV, file 21, no. 40

Doesn't seem very accessible.

Might not be very helpful, somehow, as the writer seems to infer the existence of a son from other evidence.

Obviously any clue to the age of Sancha at that time would be helpful.  If she were married by then, it would settle the matter.

There's a long gap between 1466 and 1486 where we don't seem to know who was lord of the entailed or unentailed estates.
For whatever reason, this surname has a lot of variations in spelling, Ewerby is one. We probably should write these down.
+3 votes
RA vol. I, page 320 BERGAVENNY 14.

Elizabeth Beauchamp, married (as his 1st wife) Edward Neville, youngest son of Ralph Neville, by his 2nd wife, Joan Beaufort, legitimated daughter of John of Gaunt. They had two sons, Richard and George, and two daughters, Elizabeth (wife of Thomas Grey), and Katherine (wife of John Iwardby, K.B.).
by Bettye Carroll G2G6 Mach 5 (53.1k points)
+3 votes
RA vol. III, page 632 LOVEL 13ii.

In 1424 John Iwardby and another, trustees of Robert and Elizabeth  quitclaimed to John Burgh, of Waleton, and Katherine his wife all right in the lands, tenements, etc., in Woodmansterne, Surrey.
by Bettye Carroll G2G6 Mach 5 (53.1k points)
+3 votes
RA vol. V

page 278 Iwardby, Margaret & Ralph Verney

page 278 Margaret & William Say

page 435 Iwardby, John & Katherine Missenden

page 436 Iwardby, John & Jane Annesley

page 436 Iwardby, John & Joan Brudenell

page 436 Iwardby, Nicholas & Elizabeth Hampden

page 437 Iwardby, Elizabeth & Thomas Pigott

page 437 Iwardby, Elizabeth & William Elmes
by Bettye Carroll G2G6 Mach 5 (53.1k points)

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