The Children of Katherine de Mortimer and Thomas de Beauchamp

Question

Hello all,

On my continuing quest to fix up Katherine's profile, I noticed a few odd children. Of the 18 children linked to Katherine, only 15 are listed by Richardson in Magna Carta Ancestry.

"Agnes Beauchamp", I believe, is a profile conflated of two separate people; this is because this "Agnes" is attached to an "Unknown Cokesay" and Richardson lists that a daughter Anne was the wife of a man named Walter de Cokesey. On the profile itself it's noted under its Research Notes that there is some confusion regarding the identity of this woman.

Meanwhile, three of the sons attached, Hurom Jerome, Richard, and John are not listed by Richardson and I cannot find anywhere else where any of them are listed. Not a single thing.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Comments

Agnes and Cokesey relate to the Grandison thread a few months back

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/714109/further-thoughts-on-the-eldest-agnes-de-grandison-please?show=714109#q714109

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According to this

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/AoOSfyGeIC8

John is unidentified.

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Based on what they said about John (died 1389), I found a John de Beauchamp who died in 1388 who was the son of Thomas' brother John.

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I read the Grandison thread, but it doesn't seem to confirm an awful lot. Is there anything on Richard or Hurom?

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Wikipedia says Sir John Beauchamp of Holt, 1st Baron of Kidderminster (beheaded 1388) was the son of Thomas's brother Sir John KG, well it implies it by the link, but that's just Wikipedia.  He was actually the son of Thomas's 2nd cousin Sir John, who doesn't have a profile, unless it's Beauchamp-230.

Complete Peerage conflates the 1st Baron with his father and tells a story where he's pushing 70 when he rises to stardom.  I don't see a correction in Vol. 14 or on Chris Phillips's site.  But it's old news, as the line is in VCH (1913)

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/worcs/vol3/pp401-408

citing wardrobe accounts that mention father and son.

1st Baron's father is here

http://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p5157.htm#i154838

following Richardson RA 2013 Vol 3 p. 301 #11.  They're ancestors of the Torrey gateway immigrants, but they aren't in earlier Richardson books as they don't have any Plantagenet or Magna Carta lines.

Thomas the 11th earl had another 2nd cousin, Sir John Beauchamp of Powick

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Beauchamp-198

who is the one mentioned in the 2010 thread about the Marchioness of Dorset's cousins.  But it's very tenuous.

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Richardson also says we're left guessing about where Margaret's father is named as Sir John Beauchamp, but that's an easy guess

https://archive.org/details/visitationcount01mundgoog/page/n61

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Thank you for the further information! Is there anything you'd recommend being done?

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I have a question. I have several Peerage's that list Richard Molesworth as marrying Eleanor, daughter and heir of Sir Thomas Mortimer of Lincolnshire (Sharpe's, & Betham's) stating, in the time of Edward III. Almon's says Eleanor daughter and heir of Sir Robert Mortimer. Betham actual provides extra details, referring to pipe-rolls of Northamptonshire. Is anyone aware of whether this Eleanor fits in here with the Mortimer's here?

(You can read the sources if necessary at Molesworth-121, which eventually I will put under correct profiles when I have 1500 clearance.)

Answer 1

Dugdale, in The Antiquities of Warwickshire, volume 1, page 400 has an image of the 10 daughters of Sir Thomas de Beauchamp and his wife Katherine taken from South windows of the quire (choir?) in Collegiate Church of St Mary's, Warwick, and there is an Agneta (Agnes) but no Anne.  However much of the Church was destroyed in a fire in 1693, so it's not clear if the etchings of the windows depicting the daughters were from before 1693 or the windows were added after that date when the church was rebuilt?

On page 399, second column of the same book, Dugdale mentions presumed sons John and Hierome again based on images on glass presumably with the surcoat of arms of the Beauchamps, but Dugdale isn't convinced and states that they aren't named in the Rous Roll

On the same page he does mention two illegitimate children of Sir Thomas, a son, Sir John Addurston, Knight, and a daughter Mary, the wife of Sir Richard Herthull, Knight, who from the footnotes are named in the Rous Roll I think.

No mention of a son Richard anywhere that I can see.

Comments

Gahh...of all of the things to miss, it was Dugdale! I worked on his WikiTree profile for weeks! sigh

I'm content with Agnes; I just wasn't sure about sources, but now that there are some that's no problem. Should the Uncertain Existence template be placed on Richard's profile for the moment? And what should be done with John and Hierome? I'd really like to get the basic data of Katherine's profile fixed up as best as it can be before I begin to input the biography I'm working on.

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Yes I think disconnect Richard and mark him as Uncertain Existence at the moment, it's possible he belongs somewhere else in the Beauchamp family but that can be worked on later.  Maybe leave John and Hierome still connected but mark Thomas and Katherine as uncertain parents?  If the glass windows depicting them are correct, then they must also fit into the Beauchamp family somewhere.

I meant to add that there are some details about the sons in The Complete Peerage, Volume 12, part 2, pages 374-378, including the 3 younger sons in note (h) starting on page 374.  You can download or view this volume from the link on this page.