Ida Longespee de Beauchamp's, 1st husband, Ralph Somery, in need of clean up, please.

Question

Needed an expert detangler, all have D. Richardson sources. 

Found the following Note in biography of  Ralph (Somery) de Somery,

Note — May be connected to the wrong parents - Ralph (current father) died 1211. See the Somery entries in FMG's Medieval Lands project ^{https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Somery-3#_note-0}

Relationship Trail according to source "Royal Ancestry" 2013 D. Richardson Vol. IV. page 671

 John (Somery) de Somery

wife of John Somery Hawise (Paynel) de Berkeley 

 Ralph (Somery) de Somery

wife not listed 

 Ralph (Somery) de Somery

1st husband of  Ida (Longespée) de Beauchamp (they had no issue). Ida's 2nd husband was William (Beauchamp) de Beauchamp,  They had 3 sons, and four daughters, including Ela. 

Thank you!

 

Answer 1

Wow, that's quite a tangle. According to Cawley, this was probably a child marriage. 

Ralph, Baron of Dudley was the son of RALPH [II] de Somery (Somery-4)& his wife Margaret Crassus (-after 14 Jun 1247), da. of WILLIAM [III] Crassus (-[1204/14]).  Lord of Chipping Sodbury. 

Some of the details of that Margaret are contained in the profile for Margaret Marshal, which Cawley explains that the dates don't work and doubts they were the same person. She is currently the mother of Ralph's brother Roger de Somery but none of his other siblings, despite the RA citations for her being the mother of the other 4 siblings, incl. Ralph.

Comments

Thank you! Appreciate your help with this tangle so much, Kirk Hess !

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It gets worse - Ida had a much younger sister whom Cawley and Richardson both name Ida who married Walter FitzRobert, while the ODNB has a single Ida marrying de Beauchamp & FitzRobert with no child marriage to de Somery.

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Thank you,  Kirk Hess !  The tangle seems to be growing! Because the WikiTree ID spelling starts with 'de' for both  Robert (De Toeni) Toeni husband of (Margaret)  Magaret (De Beaumont) Beaumont  

keeps both of them out of the Toeni relationship trail, and they may need a merge.  AND, '  Ida (Hainault) de Tony

is married to both Wife of Robert (Toni) Toeni — Wife of Roger (Toeni) de Toeni .

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Thank you,  Kirk Hess ! I will check D. Richardson's RA, and post the information I find from him here.     

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"Royal Ancestry" 2013 D. Richardson Vol. V. page 170-173 *Richardson's TONY section 169 - 178.  

4. Roger De Tony (Toeni-2) married Ida (Hainault-62). They had five sons Ralph, Roger, Baldwin, and Geoffrey, and two daughters, Elizabeth and Godeheut. Roger De Tony died 1157-62.

 Roger (Toeni) de Toeni

 Ida (Hainault) de Tony 

5. Ralph De Tony, born about 1140. He married after 1155 Margaret (Beaumont-529), Of Leicester. She was born 1125. They had one son, Roger, and one daughter, Ida. Sir Ralph De Tony died in 1162. His widow, Margaret, was living in 1185.  

Ralph (Toeni) de Tony 

 Marguerite (Beaumont) de Tosny 

6. Roger De Tony, was born about 1160. He married in 1175 Constance De Beaumont. They had three sons Ralph, Roger, and Richard, and one daughter, Margaret. Sir Roger De Tony died in 1208-0. His widow, Constance, died 2 October, before 1236.

 Roger (Toeni) de Tony  

 Constance (Beaumont) de Tony 

Thank you,  Kirk Hess !

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Profiles mentioned above ...

* Robert (De Toeni)  (1086-)

*  Magaret (De Beaumont) Beaumont abt 1120

*  Robert (Toni) Toeni  (1144-1209)

*  Roger (Toeni) de Toeni  (1104-1162)

Thank you!

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In this time frame WikiTree has three Margaret 'DeBeaumont's,' 

Magaret (De Beaumont) Beaumont abt 1120 -  De Beaumont-382   

Margaret (de Beaumont) Beaumont abt 1154 Northumberland, Northumberland, England - 1201  De Beaumont-361   \

Maud (de Beaumont) Beaumont -  De Beaumont-284 

one Marguerite (Beaumont) de Tosny abt 1125 Leicester, Leicestershire, England - aft 1185 

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In this time frame, WikiTree has six Robert Toeni's

Robert (Toeni) de Toeni 1036 Tosny, Louviers, Eure, Normandy - abt 04 Aug 1088  Toeni-30 

Robert (De Toeni) Toeni 1086 Tosni, France -  De Toeni-120

Robert Toeni 1108 Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England -  Toeni-41

Robert Tosney abt 1120 -  Tosney-2  

Robert (Toni) Toeni 1144 Eggington,,Derbyshire,England - 1209  Toni-11

Robert (Toeni) de Toeni 04 Apr 1276 Thornby, Scotland - bef 28 Nov 1309  Toeni-12

one  Robert (Tosny) de Tosny abt 1009 - 04 Aug 1088  Tosny-2

Thank you!

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In this time frame, WikiTree has seven Roger Toeni's 

Roger (Toeni) de Toeni abt 0990 Tosny, Eure, Haute-Normandie, France - 31 May 1039  Toeni-21

Roger (Toeni) de Toeni II 1074 Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England - 1091  Toeni-38

Roger (Toeni) de Toeni abt 1104 Hertfordshire, England - bef 1162  Toeni-2

Roger (Toeni) de Toeni IV abt 1130 Flamstead, Herefordshire -  Toeni-35

Roger (Toeni) de Tony 1156 Flamstead, Hertfordshire - bef 1209  Toeni-47

Roger Toeni abt 1195 Of, Flamsted, HRT, England - 1227  Toeni-60

Roger (Toeni) de Tony abt 29 Sep 1235 Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England - bef 12 May 1264  Toeni-15

Thank you!