Who was the wife of William Beauchamp (1130-1197)?

Question

Malcolm has posted this.  Can anyone help sort this out?

On 11 Feb 2021 Malcolm Rowlands wrote on Beauchamp-440:

Who is the definitive wife? Details re MedLands does not show William of Elmley, Worcestershire married to a Joan St Valery but a Matilda de Limesey which is also in his son Andrew’s biography by TeacherGenealogist007 plus Bradley does not list Andrew’s parents. I don’t have access to the other primary sources except The Peerage. MedLands, as a point of interest, on son Andrew does not certify William as the first name of his father! In saying all this every other website I have access says Joan St Valery is his mother! Sources - http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/enguntac.htm#_Toc21078993 re William. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/enguntac.htm#_Toc21078993 re Andrew. http://www.teachergenealogist007.com/search?q=Eva+grey http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~hwbradley/genealogy/aqwg1420.htm#23596 reference only.

Comments

This is another case where primary sources are required (which thepeerage site is not)

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The Teacher Genealogist site lists extracts from primary sources, as does MEDLANDS. This does not make them perfect but it makes them useful.

Answer 1

There was a discussion on the Gen Medieval list in 2010, that decided that Bertha de Braose was the wife of the William de Beauchamp who died in 1197 and Avicia (family unknown) was his mother. https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/g-Z_12VnIxw/m/Ul7pMbcjKSEJ

But a later lengthy discussion in 2017 seemed to think that Bertha de Braose was a wife of William's son Walter, and I don't think came to any conclusions about who William's wife was, though somewhere in one of those discussions, definitely not Joan de Walerie or Joan de St Valery.

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/ZSgXNf442uk/m/ImLzzaLPCAAJ

Unless I'm missing something (which is quite likely I haven't read the 2017 discussion thoroughly) it would see that the wife or wives of William de Beauchamp who died in 1197, are unknown.

I definitely think that Andrew de Beauchamp is incorrectly attached as his son, there were several Beauchamp families and not necessarily all directly related to each other.

Comments

Thank you Andrew your comment seems to support the MedLand link which does not give Andrew’s father’s first name. That then puts Matilda de Limesey back in the frame as his mother, father uncertain.

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I've detached the son Andrew.  Thanks, John.

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Hi John, just looking at this again, I see that we are not currently taking a neutral stance concerning the wives of the Beauchamps but rather a quite specific position.

It might be worth reviewing again? By my reading of the 2017 SGM discussion, there is a more or less clear leading proposal but it is not the one MEDLANDS is giving. There is also another discussion which leads to part of our solution, whereby we have created a William III between William II and Walter de Beauchamp. The existence of this William III seems doubtful, but if he did exist he was probably a brother of Walter, not father?

(Another relevant post is here:https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/354904/reconcile-william-beauchamp-grandson-debeauchamp-denoted)  

William I's wife seems to have been an Amicia/Avicia of Salwarpe. (Read to the bottom of the 2017 SGM thread.) She was also mother of William II and still alive much later, so there was no wife after her. We have a Maude de Braose, which seems a bit untenable?

William II's wife seems to be most likely to be Bertha de Briouze. Joan de St Valery seems to be a myth, according to the 2017 SGM discussion, but we have put our money on her.

Walter's wife seems to be Joane de Mortimer. We do have that.

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N. Yeager mentioned the same pedigree as you, Andrew, last year in a post on William I's profile.  I am in favor of going with your suggestion.  If others are in agreement, are you available/willing to handle it?

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I guess we have to decide on a few different possible actions.

1. Wife of William I. Do we convert Maud de Braoze (Braose-52), who probably did not exist, into Amicia/Avicia of Salwarpe? (Or for example do we make a new profile?)

2. Wife of William II.

a. First, I suggest that we switch Braose-14 (Bertha) from being wife of William III, to wife of William II.

b. Second, what do we do with Walerie-1 who probably did not exist?

3. William III and Walter.

a. I suggest as a first step we move Walter to being a brother of William III. (Change of father, not mother. See 2a.)

b. On William III there should be a note about doubted existence?

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• If Maud de Braose exists in some published works, I suggest we detach but keep her profile and note that she may never have existed.
• Create a new profile for Avicia de Salwarpe.
• Detach Walerie-1 and note she may never have existed (since she is shown in a pedigree contained in "The Inquisitiones Post Mortem for the County of Worcester: From their commencement in 1242 to the end of the 13th century"
• Agree to move Walter
• On William III, I wonder if he should just be deleted/merged away...

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I suppose we should be reluctant to suggest deleting William III until someone can look through the evidence more completely. In the meantime leaving him as an uncertain person seems not to be too "dangerous" for a while.

Answer 2

Wikipedia ha him as 3rd son of Thomas and    spouse is lisred as Lady Joan FizAllen.  Sources listde on Wikipedia.  This is a later William  1343 – 8 May 1411

 Joan de Beauchamp may refer to: Joan Butler, Countess of Ormond (1396–1430), daughter of William de Beauchamp, 1st Baron Bergavenny and Lady Joan FitzAlan  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Beauchamp_(of_Elmley)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_Beauchamp_(of_Elmley)listed as son of William 

Answer 3

I strongly agree with the conclusion of the Google Group Gen Medieval discussion group in 2010 that Bertha/Berta de Braose was the wife of William Beauchamp who died about 1197, and was NOT the wife of William de Beauchamp who died about 1170.   https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/g-Z_12VnIxw/m/Ul7pMbcjKSEJ

My analysis that leads me to this conclusion is as follows:

Follow the proven ownership of the manor of Tetbury.  According to an article on the Manor of Tetbury at British History Online, the manor of Tetbury came into the ownership of the de St. Valery family with Reynold de St. Valery owning it about 1148.  Reynold/Renold de St. Valery died about 1066 at which time it came into the ownership of his son, Bernard de St. Valery who died in 1197.  Then Tetbury was granted to William de Breuse  (it is speculated to be either upon or because of his marriage to Maud de St. Valery, daughter of Bernard).  This William de Breuse/Braose was William de Braose (born about 1150; died about 1211), [not his father William de Braose (born about 1112, died about 1192) who married Bertha of Hereford].  Tetbury was conficated from William de Breuse in 1208 due to his quarrel with King John.  Tetbury was then granted to Peter FitzHerbert in 1212.  After William de Breuse/Braose's death in 1211, his heirs disputed ownership of Tetbury with the King.  By 1215 the ownership of Tetbury was with Giles de Breuse, son of William de Breuse.
 https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol11/pp264-269

In supplement to the above account of Tetbury there is the Inquisition apparently following the death of John de Thorndon in 1305 (19 June 33 Edward I) which involves the ownership of Tettebury and other property.  It says that William de Breouse, long since deceased, held the manor of Tettebury of the King in chief by the service of a knight's fee and he gave the rent "a hundred and sixty years and more past to William de Bello Campo, great grandfather of the said Earl [i.e., William de Bello Campo, the grantor of Tetbury to John de Thorndon] and Berta, daughter of said William de Brewose, in free marriage."
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000023992122&view=1up&seq=554&skin=2021

So, sometime during William de Braose's ownership he granted the "rent" from Tetbury to William de Bello Campo and Berta, his wife, daughter of said William de Braose.  Since the land did not come into the ownership of the de Braose family until 1097 or after, the William de Bello Campo/Beauchamp who received the land from William de Braose on his marriage to Berta/Bertha de Braose could not have been the William de Bello Campo/Beauchamp who died in 1170), and thus must have been his son, William de Beauchamp who died about 1097.    

The above inquest records was quite likely inaccurate to say that this William de Braose who granted the rent to William de Bello Campo was 160 or more years before 1305 (rather than lesser time).  This is only me speculating, but perhaps the "160 years" was a confusion by the person taking the inquest with the earlier ownership of Tetbury in the de St. Valery family.

Comments

Thanks for raising it Bob. If we look at those SGM discussions there is one document which caused all the doubts, and many of the well-known SGM figures (Peter Stewart, Todd Farmerie, John Watson) suspect that there may be a mistake in that document. They propose that what is needed is that someone check the original Latin version of the 1227 and/or 1221 fine. As pointed out there:

1. Slip-ups between names like William and Walter can happen because of scribes using W or some other abbreviation, which a later transcriber expands back out.

2. It also seems possible that a confusion is coming because of complex sentences wherein Walter is being treated as heir of Bertha.

That second discussion is a long one. It really looks like a case that might eventually be cleared up.