Margaret (ferch Llywelyn) de Clifford (abt. 1208 - aft. 1268)

Born about 1208 in Caernarvonshire, Wales [uncertain]

Ancestors

Descendants

Died after 1268 after about age 60 in Clifford Castle, Herefordshire, England

Problems/Questions Profile managers: Liz Shifflett [send private message] and Wales Project WikiTree [send private message]

Margaret (ferch Llywelyn) de Clifford is managed by the Wales Project. Join: Wales Project Discuss: wales_project

Biography

Margaret ferch Llywelyn was a member of the aristocracy in British Isles.

Margaret ferch Llywelyn, daughter of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth,^[1] married (1) in 1219 John de Brewes, (2) before 2 Nov. 1234 Walter de Clifford^[2] (married after 1232^[3]).

John de Briouse, Lord of Bramber and Gower, was the son of William de Briouse & his wife _____^[4] (also de Brewes, Breuse, Brause, etc.,^[5] de Braose,^[6] and Bruse^[7]). John was born about 1197 (aged 22 in 1219), son of William by Maud de Clare.^[5]

Her children with John de Brewes^[5][2] (John de Briouse Lord of Bramber and Gower^[8]):

• William,^[8] Knt., 1st Lord Brewes, married (1) Aline de Multon, (2) Agnes de Moels, (3) Mary de Roos^[5]
• Richard (born before 1232^[8]), Knt., married Alice le Rus^[5]
• Llywelyn de Brewes^[2][5][9]
• John de Brewes, married Margery ____^[5][2][9]

John was "killed by a fall from his horse near Bramber, Sussex shortly before 16 July 1232".^[5]

After her first husband's death in 1232, Margaret married before 2 Nov. 1234 Walter de Clifford, Knt., of Clifford, Herefordshire, Cortham (in Diddlebury), Shropshire, Caenby, Lincolnshire, etc., and Bronllys, Breconshire, etc., Sheriff of Herefordshire, Constable of Cardigan and Carmarthen Castles, son and heir of Walter de Clifford, of Clifford, Herefordshire, by Agnes de Cundy,^[8] daughter and heiress of Roger de Condet of Caenby and Glentham, Lincolnshire.^[5][10]

Margaret and Walter had one daughter:^[5]

• Maud (Matilda^[11]) de Clifford, marred (1) William Longespée, Knt., (2) John Giffard, Knt., 1st Lord Giffard^[5] (John Giffard had abducted her.^[12])

Walter de Clifford, Knt.,^[5] died December 1263^[8] (shortly before 23 Dec. 1263^[5]). Margaret was still living in 1268.^[5]

"At her death, her heart was buried in the church of Aconbury, Herefordshire."^[5]

Estimated Birth Date

No estimate of Margaret's birth year is found in Norr, Cokayne, or Richardson.

Margaret married 1219. Her first son by John de Brewes, William, is said to have been of "full age 15 July 1245,"^[2] thus born by 1224. "Though he was allowed to succeed his father in 1232, before 18 July, he is not stated to have been of full age in the Fine Rolls until 15 July 1245."^[13]

One method of estimation would be to assume, given the facts above, that son William was conceived in 1223 and that the marriage, though arranged earlier, was first consummated in 1223, when Margaret achieved the age of 15. This would place Margaret's birth at 1208. Since she is not recognized by Cawley as a daughter of llywelyn's wife Joan, Margaret's mother would have been one of llywelyn's mistresses. This is consistent with other estimates of her birth year. Day-1904 18:46, 26 February 2016 (EST)

John de Braose was killed at Bramber 16 July 1232, having been bruised in a fall from his horse [Curia Regis Rolls, 490-1; CCR 1231-4, Hen. III, 2:86; Brut (1860), p. 320-1; Brut (1952), p. 102; Brut (1955), p. 231].^[13]

The lands, wardship and marriage of William de Braose, son and heir of John, was in the hands of various nobles until he came of age in 1241, indicating a birth year of about 1220:^[13]

• Peter des Riveaux was first custodian [see CCR 1231-4, Hen. III, 2:86; CPR 1225-32, Hen. III, 2:490].
• Henry de Turberville was granted the lands and marriage in March 1234 [CPR 1232-47, Hen. III, 3:41, 45].
• Richard Siward was granted the same in July 1234 [CPR 1232-47, Hen. III, 3:61].
• Richard, Earl of Cornwall, the King's brother, was granted the custody, lands and marriage of William de Braose in January 1234/5 until 1241, when William came of age [CPR 1232-47, Hen. III, 3:89; CCR 1234-7, Hen. III, 3:41; CChR 1:192].

• b 1205 if 15 at birth of first child by John Braose was born in 1220^[14]

If Margred/Margaret were older, would it not be more logical to conclude she was a daughter of a concubine, such as Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch (mother of Llywelyn's eldest son Gruffudd), rather than a child of this daughter of the King of Man?"^[13]

Richardson, 2009, Gen-Medieval Archives: "I think it is a fair assumption that Llywellyn's daughter, Margaret, was born right about 1205, as she had her first known Braose child in 1220. That's providing Margaret was 14 when her marriage was consumated and 15 when she gave birth to her first known child. If correct, then Margaret would have been born right in the time period Llywellyn was married to the Isles girl."^[15]

Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales, Prince of Aberffraw, Lord of Snowden, and father of Margaret ferch Llewellyn, was born in 1173.^[2] Margaret married her first husband in 1219.^[5] Therefore, Margaret was likely born between 1190 and 1203, being the dates of (1) her father's maturity and (2) the latest year she may have been born and been at least 16 years old at her wedding.^[16]

Note - in the 11th century, Welsh women consummated their marriage as early as 14.^[17]

Disputed Mother

Margred's parents were Llywelyn the Great and...

• unknown^[18]
• unknown mistress^[3][2]
• Tangwystl ferch Lywarch (known mistress)^[6]
• Joan of England^[19][6][20]
• daughter of King of Man,^[21][22][23] Rǫgnvaldr Guðrøðarson, widow of Rhodri ab Owain, Llywelyn's uncle^[24]

Richardson, 2009, Gen-Medieval Archives: "The subject of the maternity of Llywelyn's daughter, Margaret, could doubtless occupy many posts here on the board. As best I understand the evidence, Margaret was a bit older than Llywelyn's two daughters by Joan, Gladys and Ellen. If we accept the possibility that Margaret might be Joan's daughter, it makes things EXTREMELY crowded in the nursery at the beginning of Llywelyn's marriage to Joan. Besides Gladys and Ellen, Llywelyn and Joan also had their son and heir, David, at the first part of their marriage. I frankly can't possibly see how Margaret would fit chronologically to be Joan's daughter. Margaret either has to be the child of one of Llywelyn's earlier two marriages or else illegitimate. My opinion (not conclusion) is that Margaret fits best as a child of her father's marriage to the Isles woman. That's my opinion. Not a conclusion. I'm certainly open to further discussion and hopefully new evidence. ...

"Likewise, having an Isles mother would have afforded her the kinds of connections which would have made her a desirable match for the Braose family."^[25]

Sources

1. ↑ Joan of England was Llywelyn's wife, but may not have been the mother of Margaret (see "Disputed Mother" above).
2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.5 2.6} Douglas Richardson. Royal Ancestry (2013), volume I, pages 530-532 BREWES 7.
3. ↑ ^{3.0 3.1} Charles Cawley. Margaret ferch Llywelyn, entry in "Medieval Lands" database.
4. ↑ "The Chronicle of the Princes of Wales records that 'John de Bruse married Margaret the daughter of Llywelyn son of Iorwerth' in 1219" (Cawley, John de Briouse).
5. ↑ ^{5.00 5.01 5.02 5.03 5.04 5.05 5.06 5.07 5.08 5.09 5.10 5.11 5.12 5.13 5.14 5.15} Douglas Richardson. Magna Carta Ancestry (2011), volume I, pages 316-318 BREWES 3.
6. ↑ ^{6.0 6.1 6.2} Bartrum Chart, Gruffudd ap Cynan 4 (no longer online).
7. ↑ Brut y Tywysogion, Jesus MS 111 (Red Book of Hergest), retrieved 2014-06-08, amb
8. ↑ ^{8.0 8.1 8.2 8.3 8.4} Charles Cawley (see Source list).
9. ↑ ^{9.0 9.1} Sons Llywelyn and John are not listed by Cawley in "Medieval Lands" database.
10. ↑ Richardson says as his 2nd wife, but Cawley (Walter de Clifford) does not show a previous wife for him. He was her second husband.
11. ↑ Charles Cawley. Walter Clifford, entry in "Medieval Lands" database.
12. ↑ soc.genealogy.medieval post, October 1999, by "pcr"
13. ↑ ^{13.0 13.1 13.2 13.3} soc.genealogy.medieval post, October 1999, by "pcr"
14. ↑ Douglas Richardson's Gen-Medieval Rootsweb post, Oct. 5, 2009
15. ↑ Gen-Medieval Rootsweb post, Oct. 5, 2009, by Douglas Richardson
16. ↑ analysis/conclusion added by April Dauenhauer, August 2, 2015
17. ↑ See "Minimum Age for Welsh Kingship in the Eleventh Century," by Darrell Wolcott, posted by The Center for the Study of Ancient Wales
18. ↑ Dictionary of National Biography, Llywelyn (p 13)
19. ↑ Margred, Rootsweb entry from the database for Celtic Royal Genealogy, the Turner-Thomas site "which is a definitive, well researched site" (according to Prof. Myron Wyn Evans, in his book O Hudd Ei Ddoe (2012). Link removed 20 June 2023 since Ancestry has deleted the Rootsweb database.
20. ↑ Penman blog post: "Although opinion is divided over the mothers of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and Susanna, the majority of the genealogists I have studied lean towards their mother being Joanna." (accessed Feb. 13, 2016)
21. ↑ Richardson in 1999 Gen-Medieval forums for example
22. ↑ Richardson refers to her in his 2009 Gen-Medieval posts as the Isles girl, woman, mother.
23. ↑ Ynys Môn (see Wikipedia: Anglesey)
24. ↑ Wikipedia: Rǫgnvaldr Guðrøðarson & Rulers of the Kingdom of the Isles (accessed Feb. 14, 2016); see also "The Kings of the Isle of Man," compiled by Stewart Baldwin, note 3
25. ↑ Gen-Medieval Rootsweb post, Oct. 6, 2009, by Douglas Richardson

• The Bartrum Project (digitization of "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500" by Peter C. Bartrum) no longer available online
• Cawley, Charles. "Medieval Lands": A prosopography of medieval European noble and royal families © by Charles Cawley, hosted by Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (FMG). See also WikiTree's source page for MedLands.
  • Margaret ferch Llywelyn
  • John Briouse
  • Walter Clifford
• Lewis, Marlyn. Entry for "Margaret of Wales" in "Our Royal, Titled, Noble, and Commoner Ancestors and Cousins" (database online, accessed September 30, 2015), citing The Complete Peerage, by Cokayne, Vol. V, p. 642; Some Early English Pedigrees, by Vernon M. Norr, p. 68 and Richardson (Magna Carta Ancestry and Royal Ancestry).
• Plantagenesta, entry for "The mother and daughters of Joan of Wales" (accessed Feb. 13, 2016).
• Richardson, Douglas. Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 4 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. 2nd edition. Salt Lake City: the author, 2011. See also WikiTree's source page for Magna Carta Ancestry.
• Richardson, Douglas. Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 5 vols, ed. Kimball G. Everingham. Salt Lake City: the author, 2013. See also WikiTree's source page for Royal Ancestry.

Other references:

• UK and Ireland, Find A Grave Index, 1300s-Current about Margred Verch Llewelyn. Source Information: Ancestry.com. UK and Ireland, Find A Grave Index, 1300s-Current [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2012. (Accessed 25 December 2014). Original data: Find A Grave: Memorial #82545525. Data not sourced, inaccurate. Do not use this for a source for Margaret of Wales.
• Web: Netherlands, GenealogieOnline Trees Index, 1000-Current about Margaret Verch Llewellyn. Source Information: Ancestry.com. Web: Netherlands, GenealogieOnline Trees Index, 1000-Current [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2014. Original data: GenealogieOnline. Coret Genealogie, (Accessed 25 December 2014.). Broken links, data not sourced, inaccurate. Do not use this for a source for Margaret of Wales.

Click the Changes tab to see edits to this profile; from that list, click WikiTree IDs other than ferch Llywelyn-5 to see changes to those profiles prior to being merged. Thank you to everyone who contributed to this profile.</center>