Another broken gateway lineage? Edmund Kempe of Virginia

Question

Does Edmund Kempe (d. 1660, Lancaster Co., Virginia) still qualify as a gateway ancestor?  A new discussion over at SGM, started by Nathan Murphy, has the following to say: 

'Who were the parents of Edmund Kemp, Gent. (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660)? In an article published by Lothrop Withington in 1912, Edmund is identified as the son of Edmund Kemp (d. Stepney, Middlesex, c1649), and grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612).(1) This conclusion also now appears in RA and RD900.(2) Through new records that have come to light, I will show that Robert’s son Edmund did not die in Stepney in 1649, but rather was a vicar in Nottinghamshire, who was living there as late as 1641/2.... [snip]... In conclusion Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660) was probably the grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612), but which of Robert’s seven sons was Edmund’s father is currently uncertain."

Can Edmund Kempe still be a gateway ancestor?

Comments

At this point, is there any reason not to detach the parents of the father of the immigrant Edmund Kempe?

Answer 1

This raises a more general question of whether there are any good ideas about how to handle cases where a relationship is known, but not the exact parent. They come up every now and then. I think most often Wikitree and most online trees make a guess and at best put in a note. I seem to also recall proposals somewhere about make a fake person for an unknown link.

Any chance that an option can be found in the software?

Comments

There are Magna Carta trails through Unknown de Say

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Say-152

Same problem if William had 6 daughters and we knew all their names, but we didn't know which one married Sudeley.

There's a line in the books that starts with Isabel Patrick, descended in some unknown way from Roger Bigod.  (The Gateways do have alternative lines.)

 

 

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The example I was thinking of was Vaux-21's parentage. There are two respectable but speculative proposals at least, but both involve the same grandfather.

Answer 2

Hitchin-Kemp mentions Richard Kempe buying a manor in Roydon in 1579, afterwards called Gissing Hall.  (This is evidently Roydon near Diss)

Blomefield disagrees.

Blomefield on Gissing:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol1/pp162-181

Blomefield on Roydon:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol1/pp39-48

What I'm getting from all this is that a Gissing Hall in Gissing and a Gissing Hall in Roydon descended together to 3 co-heiresses.  Sulyard bought all 3 shares and sold them to Heveningham, who sold Gissing Hall in Gissing to Richard Kempe, who was buying everything in Gissing parish.  But Heveningham seems to have held on to Gissing Hall in Roydon, which descends separately from then on.  A John Kemp of Flordon held court there in 1600 and "his son" Robert Kemp Gent held court in 1602.  Possibly they were stewards or guardians.

If that's correct, then we may have another man who fits the description of the Oxford student's father, "Robert Kemp of Gissing Hall in Norfolk, Gent".

We don't seem to have anything else that would place the vicar as the baronet's brother.  Arthur's will mentions 4 of the eldest children of his brother Edmond, but evidently doesn't say he's a priest, and it's a bit odd that a vicar wouldn't have all his kids in his own register, though not decisive.

Another indecisive point is that the Alumni book specifically says Gissing Hall, not just Gissing.

But we still have nothing to say which of Gov Richard's brothers was the father of his nephew Edmond.  The only clue is Bridget's power of attorney in Lancaster County.

 

 

Comments

It's also interesting that Richard, Arthur and Edward are all supposed to have gone to Cambridge.  However, it's possible that Venn has put 2 and 2 together and made 5.  Certainly Richardson is pointedly disregarding Edward's entry.

http://venn.lib.cam.ac.uk/cgi-bin/search-2017c.pl?sur=kemp&suro=b&fir=&firo=c&cit=&cito=c&c=all&z=all&tex=&sye=&eye=&col=all&maxcount=50

 

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Also mention in the Cambridge stuff of John Kempe d 1610

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Kempe-92

brother of Richard d 1600.  It calls him lord of the manor of Flordon, though it's hard to see how.  I wondered if he was Blomefield's John Kemp of Flordon who held court at Roydon in 1600, but it isn't quite working.  Flordon was only a manor, but Venn might have conflated 2 John Kemps.

 

 

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The Cambridge database cites Suffolk Manorial Families Vol 2 pp 235-7, presumably a pedigree.  Looks like a good book, but only Vol 1 seems to be online.

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It's possible of course that Blomefield merely assumed that Robert Kemp at Roydon in 1602 was the son of John, when he was really John's nephew.

Surprisingly, on the Gissing page, Blomefield does refer to Robert d 1612 as Gent, not Esquire.  But the future 1st Bart seems to have enrolled at Gray's Inn as the son of Robert Kempe of Gissing Sussex (sic) Esq.

https://archive.org/stream/registerofadmiss00gray#page/109/

Note the date is 1604/5, not 1614 as given by Hitchin-Kemp.  There's no such enrolment in 1614.  This makes him 10 years older and knocks 10 years off the assumed date of his parents' marriage, unless there was another wife.

And messes up Hitchin-Kemp's little fantasy about poor Dorothy having her hands full with the incorrigible Robert chasing the village girls.

 

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Here is that reference you mentioned:

Muskett, Joseph James.  Suffolk Manorial Families, being the county visitations ... vol. 2. (Exeter, 1908): 235-237. HathiTrust.org Link https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015011674705;view=1up;seq=243

And links for review later:

Hitchin-Kemp, Frederick.  A General History of the Kemp and Kempe Families… (London,1902). Archive.org Link https://archive.org/stream/generalhistoryof00kemp#page/n127/mode/2up

Withington, Lothrop.  "Virginia Gleanings in England: Kempe" in Virginia Magazine of History and Biography, vol. 20 (1912): 71-75.  Hathitrust.org Link https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3624049;view=1up;seq=86

Answer 3

Once again, I see no evidence for the parents of Edmund Kempe, and no evidence that Robert Kempe of Gissing was his grandfather.   Is there any objection to detaching Edmund's parents and removing him from the list of Gateway Ancestors?

Comments

yes. I object. Sorry, but I am knee deep in all the other detachments made recently. I'll try to get to this as soon as possible, but it may be a while.

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In a nutshell, Nathan Murphy (over at SGM) demonstrated that there were two separate Edmund Kempes -- one of them is the presumed father of Edmund the gateway immigrant, and the other is the known son of Robert Kempe of Gissing.  But then RJ Horace has demonstrated the likelihood of there being two separate Robert Kempes of Gissing.  Which one of them was the father of the early Virginia councilman Richard Kempe, who named (broken?) gateway ancestor Edmund Kempe as his nephew in his will?

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Nathan Murphy in his first post to the thread (soc,genealogy,medieval),  RA and RD900, Correction: Parentage of Edmund Kemp, Gent., (died Lancaster County, Virginia, c 1660 states, "In conclusion Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660) was probably the grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612), but which of Robert’s seven sons was Edmund’s father is currently uncertain."   Because his conclusion is that Edmund was probably the grandson of Robert Kenpe, Esq it would seem that we can not conclusively state that Edmund Kemp is not a Gateway Ancestor.  We, as a project, in collaboration with any profile managers of Edmund Kemp (Kemp-157) should have an open discussion as how to best address this situation prior to detaching any parents that would result in a change to his current Gateway status.  I believe that Richardson should be followed until this issue is resolved and an updated status is forth coming.  At any rate, my opinion is that the question of a change to Edmund Kemp's Gateway status should be delayed until project consensus on the matter is obtained.  

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Have to agree with Liz. The Kempe line is a mess (a lot of floaters now too, due to hasty disconnections). If the sorting is frustrating for the project, and others, perhaps a break from it can do wonders. Documentation takes time to find/confirm/etc., and there are several arguments- from various academics- regarding lineages... as well as several other issues. It seems there is too much of a (hasty) push to remove/unlink anyone connected to MC lines, and doing so without proper, widely researched- by more than just one person, work (including various corroborating documents).

The many GEDCOM dumps are frustrating, absolutely, but there are far too many duplicates on Wikitree already.. More disconnections means creating more of a mess.

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Um... "If the imagined grandfather MIGHT be correct, then let's keep the lineage."  That doesn't seem right, unless there is supporting evidence (which I don't see) and a lack of contrary evidence (er, what to make of Bridget, widow of the "wrong" father Edmund Kempe, with a power of attorney in Lancaster Co., Virginia, home of immigrant Edmund Kempe?).  Is Nathan Murphy's initial supposition over at SGM anything more than wishful thinking?

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Respectfully, John, that comment (deeming someone else's efforts, and possible familial history as "wishful thinking"- and desire, and unyielding firmness, to de-link the lineage, based on what you've repeatedly argued) is a bit of a contrast. You have claimed that you've had 'communications' ('other-worldly', with ancestors, though you can never 'show' that in any real way)- and you expected it to be accepted, and valid... Though no one else can hear what you've heard, nor experience what you have... Much like other families (who are currently trying their best to research their own lines) may not have all of the papers (in their possession) to provide 'proofs', and the history may have always just been passed along (who knows- maybe from reliable material.. which is no longer easily accessible- for whatever reason). So, given that, I would expect you to err on the side of "Who knows, maybe they have knowledge that I don't."- much like your (unprovable) 'communications (and I say that respectfully, without malintent- but just to point to some understanding).

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Private, you appear to be mixing apples with oranges, while misrepresenting my position.

1.  You bring up my previous discussion of communicating with ancestors, which can be found at this G2G thread: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/communicating-with-ancestors

2.  You falsely claim that I "expect" communication with ancestors "to be accepted, and valid."  However, as I have noted before, I have never used this ancestral material (which I have added to separate free space pages) as a source for the information on any wikitree profile.  This is very different from the problem with the question of the evidence (or lack thereof) for Edmund Kempe's father and grandfather as part of a Magna Carta lineage.

3.  You then implicitly acknowledge that there is insufficient evidence supporting the currently-shown father and grandfather of Edmund Kempe, and you go on to state that you "expect" me to err on the side of assuming that maybe some Kempe family member out there has knowledge on Edmund Kempe's origin that the rest of us don't.

That is the way that novices are encouraged to do genealogy at ancestry.com, which has led to floods of error that then got imported onto WikiTree.  Unfortunately, this time around, the source of error is Douglas Richardson, whose self-published books on medieval ancestry are proving to be unreliable.

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Returning to your statement regarding the question of Edmund's  relationship to Robert Kempe of Gissing

"Once again, I see no evidence for the parents of Edmund Kempe, and no evidence that Robert Kempe of Gissing was his grandfather." 

In response I would like to submit the following statement from Nathan Murphy, that he posted in the thread "RA and RD 900 Correction: Parentage of Edmund Kemp, Gent (d Lancaster County, Virginia c 1660) [soc.genealogy.medieval]

"Returning to the Virginia immigrant, Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660). I see little reason to doubt he is identical to “my neaphew Edmund Kempe” bequeathed “one new servante this yeare, two Cowes next yeare, and five hundred poundes of Tobaccoi to bee payed him next yeare towardes his buildinge” in the PCC will of Richard Kempe of Rich-neck in the Collonie of Virginia Esquire, dated 1649/50.(14) Richard is a well-known figure in Virginia history. He served as Secretary of Virginia and Acting Governor of Virginia. He was the third son of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612)."  In conclusion Edmund Kemp (d. Lancaster County, Virginia, c1660) was probably the grandson of Robert Kempe, Esq., of Gissing, Norfolk (d. 1612), but which of Robert’s seven sons was Edmund’s father is currently uncertain. 
 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/fhaSCgeRjxg

Nathan also provided evidence that there are in fact two Edmund Kemps, one the vicar and one the weaver.  He continues by giving evidence that indicates that Edmund Kemp of Virginia, is the nephew of Richard Kempe, who is the third son of Robert Kemp, Esq.  That would seem to indicate that Edmund was a grandson of Robert Kemp, of Gissing, Norfolk (d 1612)

If in fact. Edmund is a grandson of Robert Kemp that would mean that his Gateway status remains intact and valid.  That being said I believe that more research should be done into this matter before any action is taken that would change Edmund Kempe's Gateway status.  Implicit in the assumption that Edmund Kemp of Virginia was the grandson of Robert Kemp is that one of Robert's sons would be the father of Edmund and that his Magna Carta lineage would remain intact.

This idea that Edmund is the grandson of Robert Kempe apparently is not Nahan's alone. RJ Horace also seems to concede in his response to your G2G post, "Another broken gateway lineage ? Edmund Kempe of Virginia"  the probability that Edmund is the grandson of Robert Kemp.  

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Thank you David, for wading into the morass of conflicting(?) snippets.  Talking things through, with an open mind, is how unviable arrangements of the puzzle pieces get weeded out.

In a nutshell, Nathan Murphy's supposition that immigrant Edmund Kempe was the grandson of Robert Kempe of Gissing (er, which one -- there seem to have been two of them?) is based on the presumption that Edmund Kempe of Lancaster County, Virginia was the "nephew" mentioned in the will of Virginia Councilman Richard Kempe (which I have no reason to doubt, at least for the moment), together with the (groundless?) supposition that Richard Kempe was the same as the Richard Kempe who was the third son of Robert Kempe of Gissing.  Where is the evidence for that supposition for the father of Richard Kempe?  That is a critical question here -- and if we don't scare up some evidence, it seems that yet another gateway ancestor will also have to be detached.

Regarding the origin of Edmund Kempe of Lancaster County, there is one more clue:  Widow Bridget Kempe gave a power of attorney in 1651 to Daniel Clark "of the Island of Virginia," per Virginia Colonial Abstracts, 2:182.

This Bridget would seem to be the widow of Edmund Kempe the weaver (the one who was not the son of Robert of Gissing -- at least not the son of one of the Robert Kempes of Gissing) -- and that is the Edmund Kempe that Richardson wrongly supposes to be the father of Edmund Kempe the immigrant. 

You say that RJ Horace says that Edmund Kempe "seems to concede" the probability that Edmund Kempe the immigrant is the son of Robert Kempe of Gissing.  But the problem is, RJ Horace's sources seem to show that there were two separate two separate Gissings and two separate Robert Kempes of Gissing (in two separate parishes) -- one of them with the Magna Carta lineage, and the other a son of John Kempe. 

So who is who in this family?  For starters, if immigrant Edmund is the son of Edmund the weaver and wife Bridget (who gave power of attorney in 1651), then he was NOT the son of the Robert with the known Magna Carta lineage.  (Of course, maybe the other Robert -- if there were indeed two Roberts -- also has a Magna Carta lineage.) 

Secondly, what reason is there to suppose that Richard Kempe was the son of one Robert Kempe and not the other Robert Kempe, or perhaps son of Robert Kempe's cousin Thomas Kempe, witness to the will of Robert's widow Dorothy?

To quote from Virginia Gleanings in England, p. 73: "While it seems practically certain that Richard Kemp, Secretary of State of Virginia, and his nephew Edmond Kemp, of Lancaster (afterward Middlesex) County, Virginia, were of the family Kemp, of Gissing or Gessing, absolute proof has not yet been produced.... Richard Kempe... died in 1656.  In his will, proved in London, December 6, 1656... he makes bequests to his brother Edward and his nephew Edmond.  The latter was apparently in Virginia.  Edmond Kemp was J.P. for Lancaster County, Virginia in 1655.  In 1656 he recorded a power of attorney for him from Sir Robert Kemp, Knight."

Sir Robert Kemp was the eldest son of the Robert Kempe with the Magna Carta lineage, so it seems clear that there is some sort of family connection to immigrant Edmund.  But Douglas Richardson seems to have jumped to the groundless conclusion that Edmund Kemp was the nephew of Sir Richard and not, say, his first cousin once removed.  (And if that sounds familiar, Richardson made exactly the same error in his broken Cudworth/Machell lineage.)

And with all that said, I'm going to further state that I haven't fully sorted out all the snippets that RJ Horace provided, so maybe I'm missing something here, and somebody else will see a convincing arrangement of the puzzle pieces, especially regarding the apparent two separate Robert Kempes of two separate Gissings.