Identification of wife of John Codrington (d c 1485)

Question

In what little genealogical work I find on Edward Codrington of Gloucestershire, there is confusion about the identification of his mother who was married to his father John Codrington.

It may be read that Sir John Maclean died before he completed a pedigree on the Codrington family however some of the families he did complete are allied. Maclean's An Historical and Genealogical memoir of the family of Poyntz part xii is cited by R H Codrington in Transactions of the
Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society (pg 309) stating "a daughter of Nicholas Poyntz , of Iron Acton, ob. 1467, is shown to have married John Codrington." I am unable to find a digital copy of vol xii of that Maclean work (finding only vol i and ii).

To which daughter of Nicholas Poyntz is he referring and since we do not have a Nicholas who died 1467, is this an error and he refers to Nicholas who died 1460? Are all of the daughters of that Nicholas detailed in Richardson (to which I do not have access)? I see reference to 18th edition of Burke's but do not find these children in earlier editions to which I have access. My secondary source is saying Nicholas who d 1460 had daughters Alice, Elizabeth, Margaret and Joan.

Comments

See also the pedigree in the Genealogist Vol 4, 1880, p 120

https://archive.org/details/genealogist04mars/page/n253/mode/2up

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Just a notation that the pedigree above taken from the Records of the College of Arms is another branch of Codrington. The common ancestor between the two branches would appear to be Robert Codrington (c 1340 - aft 1400). That Robert does not appear in this pedigree but is given as father or uncle of the Robert at the top of the cited pedigree. I've not yet seen evidence that would corroborate his being a son (but there is much work to be done).

Answer 1

To keep everything together, and avoid confusion and duplication of effort, I am copying here a closely related question Todd asked today both in G2G and on the profile of Nicholas Poyntz, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Poyntz-15, and responses that have been given.

I suggest we use just this thread for further discussion.

Comments

Question asked by Todd Stanton on 4 November 2023 both in G2G and on the profile of Nicholas Poyntz, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Poyntz-15

Does Richardson give the children of this Nicholas Poyntz? There appear to be quite a number not found in WT based upon the research of Sir John Maclean. In particular, I am looking for a daughter Maclean gives as ____________ Poyntz who married John Codrington (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Codrington-181). Source: Maclean, Sir John, Manor of Tockington, and the Roman Villa, Transactions of the Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society, 1887-88, Vol. 12, 123-169, https://www2.glos.ac.uk/bgas/tbgas/v012/bg012123.pdf p 151 There do not appear to be full citations for this generation of Poyntz given in the (extensive) pedigree in the cited article. Maclean gives the same information in another article. It may be read that he died before completing his work on the Codrington family.

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Response by Michael Cayley

Thanks, Todd, for asking. This profile needs an overhaul by the Magna Carta Project - it is in a long queue of profiles awaiting attention, and children will need to be checked out when that is done.

Richardson gives the following children (Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd edition, Vol. III, pp. 285-286 and Royal Ancestry, Vol. IV, pp. 291-292): 

By Elizabeth Mill: John, Humphrey 

By Elizabeth Hussey: Thomas, Maurice, Nicholas, Henry, Alice, Elizabeth who became a nun, Margaret who married John Lisle, Joan who married William Doddington

Maclean gives no source for the (unnamed) daughter whom he ascribes to Nicholas's marriage to Elizabeth Mill and whom he says married John Codrington. What he says must be treated with caution. What Richardson does say is that a John Codrington married an unnamed daughter of Nicholas's son John. So it looks as if Richardson believes Maclean attached the Poyntz who married John Codrington to the wrong father. This obviously needs research.

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Response by Andrew Millard

In the second edition of Magna Carta Ancestry that TGBAS paper is one of Richardson's citations when discussing Nicholas' daughter Alice: https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Magna_Carta_Ancestry_A_Study_in_Colonial/8JcbV309c5UC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=RA1-PA57&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22nicholas%20poyntz%22

The page for Nicholas in the second edition is not available to me on Google books, but in the first edition on archive.org he says Nicholas had:

• With Elizabeth Mills two sons John and Humphrey
• with Elizabeth Hussey four sons, Thomas, Maurice, Nicholas, and Henry, and four daughters, Alice (wife of Maurice Dennis), Elizabeth (nun), Margaret (wife of John Lisle), and Joan (wife of William Doddington).

Most of the sources cited are visitations, but also 

• another piece by McLean: Hist. & Gen. Memoir of the Fam. of Poyntz (1886): 57-59, 94-97 
  This does discuss some sources but they do not seem to give all the names in that pedigree, though the same pedigree is reproduced, and that is the only place that John Codrington is mentioned.
• Bodine, Anc. of Dorothea Poyntz (1995): 21.

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Todd responded to me on Nicholas Poyntz's profile by asking if Richardson gave a source for saying that John Codrington's wife was child of Nicholas's son John Poyntz rather than of Nicholas. Richardson does not give citations for individual facts, just a general source list, and some of his sources are not viewable online. If anyone has time to check his sources, or see if there are other sources supporting Richardson's belief, that would be great.

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Thanks to Michael and Andrew for the additional information. What remains unclear to me is if the pedigree in the McLean articles is that of someone else or it was constructed by McLean. I'm not sure that it matters other than knowing if there is something pre-McLean suggesting that pedigree whose sources might be traced. I have no interest in connecting the Codrington and Poyntz families to make a 'Magna Carta' connection, I'm simply looking for the correct lineage whatever it may be to identify the wife of John Codrington. Meanwhile, I will look a bit further into a possible unnamed daughter of the son John of Nicholas which Richardson suggests married a John Codrington (and is it ''this'' John Codrington?).

Answer 2

Vol 12 of the Transactions of Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological Society is available online - see here

The pedigrees of the Poyntz family is in the article titled 'Manor of Tockington, and the Roman Villa' by J. Maclean.  Unfortunately though it doesn't give a name to the daughter who married John Codrington, though there seem to be more daughters than the four you name.  I didn't check the rest of the article as to whether it cites any sources for the information in the pedigrees.

Comments

I don't see that the article includes full citations for each generation found in the exhaustive pedigree and this is one generation on which I do not find citations. I have posted a related G2G https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1657947/children-of-sir-nicholas-poyntz-c-1393-1460

Answer 3

I don't know how this might connect, but there's an IPM for Alice Coderyngton in 5-6 Henry VII. Her heir is her "cousin" Christopher Codryngton, son of her son John.

No. 673, pages 276-7
https://books.google.fi/books?redir_esc=y&id=xPMLAQAAMAAJ&q=codrington#v=snippet&q=codrington&f=false

Comments

There are at least two Alice's in the family. Their were two branches from a Robert living in 1399 both of which settled in or around what was/is Codrington so there can be confusion. The John (whose birth and death records have him living from 1364-1475 so something may be amiss), son of Robert, known as 'Standard Bearer of Henry V' which is called by R H Codrington 'Branch A' had as his wife an Alice.

The link above in the thread to R H Codrington reads, "The Inquisition of Alice shows that her son John, alive in 1471, was dead by 1485, and was the father of Christopher the heir of Alice."

Thanks for the link above, it may take some sorting out.

Answer 4

Adding an additional request. Can anyone find a digitized version of Samuel Lysons A Collection of Gloucestershire Antiquities published serially 1791-1803 and as a single volume 1804. In particular, looking for plate xxxiv which is tomb of John Codrington in Wapley Church (St Peter's) c 1475.

Comments

I can't find that work but there is a picture of his tomb and the plate with an transcription in English in this website related to St Peter's, Wapley.

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Wonderful, John. Thank you!

Answer 5

According to Douglas Richardson, the (unnamed) Poyntz who married John Codrington was daughter of John Poyntz, son of Nicholas by his first marriage. This is what is currently shown on WikiTree. Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry, 2nd edition, Vol. III, pp. 285-286 and Royal Ancestry, Vol. IV, pp. 291-292. I have not checked Richardson's sources: the profiles of both Nicholas and John Poyntz need a full review for the magna Carta Project - they are in a long queue of profiles awaiting Project attention.

Answer 6

Hi Todd. I believe you misread the citation given in R H Codrington's 1898 article in the Transactions of the Bristol and Archaeological Society. The citation was not of  Maclean's An Historical and Genealogical Memoir of the Family of Poyntz. It was of an unsourced Poyntz pedigree in Vol. XII of the Society's Transactions, for the years 1887-8. The pedigree appears in an article by John Maclean entitled "The Manor of Tockington and the Roman Villa". The relevant page is p. 151, and can be viewed on Internet Archive here. It is simply an entry in the pedigree that a daughter of Nicholas Poyntz, from his first marriage to Elizabeth Mill, married John Codrington.

What is effectively the same unsourced pedigree appears in an 1886 private publication by Maclean: "Historical and genealogical memoir of the family of Poyntz: or, eight centuries of an English house", Part 1, privately printed, 1886, p. 95, viewable here. Maclean gives more information about Nicholas on pp. 57-60, viewable here: these pages give no mention of a daughter marrying John Codrington. They refer to two children of Nicholas Poyntz's first marriage, John and Humphry; and give a digest of Nicholas's will: this digest mentions children of Nicolas's second marriage including three daughters, Alice wife of Maurice Denys, Margaret wife of John Lisle and Joan whom Maclean and Douglas Richardson say married William Dodington.

It is only in the duplicated unsourced pedigree that Maclean suggests a daughter of Nicholas Poyntz and his first wife married John Codrington.