Comments on Thomas Ivye and heir, George

+1 vote
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Moving my profile comment here to get more eyes on my theory. Am I completely off track or on to something here? Thanks!

On 22 May 2023 Ashley Jones JD wrote on Ivye-3:

I did some work on his bio, and added/updated some estimated dates. While working on his children and their birthdates, I ran up against a question about his "son and heir," George. There is no George named as Thomas' son in the Visitation, although his oldest son Ferdinando, and two of Elizabeth Malet's sons are named. Ferdinando is noted as "1 sonne," which implies that maybe Elizabeth Keynes only bore one son, Ferdinando. 

Now, if Ferdinando was her only son, we would assume the next heir to Thomas would be one of his other sons named in the Visitation, Richard or Hugh, but it's not. His will names "my heir apparent, George Ivye." Did the Visitation forget to note Thomas' second son and ultimate heir? Or is he not Thomas' son?

Ferdinando died before his father, but he left sons, one of whom was his son and heir, George, and this is the line which the Visitation follows: Thomas, whose heir was Ferdinando, whose heir was George. 

George was born by the time of Thomas' death, named in Thomas' will, and apparently of age because he received and held the inheritance for his minor(?) brothers. From what I can see, the only source supporting George as son of Thomas is Thomas' will. He does say "my son George" in the codicil, but people were known to be a bit loose with relationship definers at this time. For instance, it would not be a stretch to call a grandson "my son," especially if his father was dead and that grandson was your heir.

So the point here: does it seem likely to anyone else that Thomas' "heir apparent," George, was not his son, but his grandson?

edit: The two George's both have profiles here, and I've added links. Obviously, they would need to be merged if they are, in fact, the same man.

WikiTree profile: Thomas Ivye
in Genealogy Help by Ashley Jones G2G6 Mach 2 (20.2k points)
retagged by Ashley Jones

I think 1. sonne could mean first son, implying others. Right above him is Elizabeth 1. wife, or first wife.

Having a look at this, the dates are all messed up. Thomas was supposedly born in 1519, his father Richard in 1506, and his father Thomas in 1480 (or 1425), and died in 1473. Not possible.

I'll see if I can make sense of the dates. 
Thomas Ivy, in 1508 described as a lunatic with lucid intervals, had property in Gloucs and Wilts, including West Kington.
https://archive.org/details/calendarofinquis03great/page/488/mode/2up?view=theater
https://archive.org/details/calendarofinquis03great/page/560/mode/2up?view=theater


This is probably the Thomas Ivy, of Chepyng Sodbury, Glos, gent, in 1502 (Common Pleas)
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40no959

There is a 
1531 Richard Ive, of West Kyngton, Wilts, gent, who must be the same as above.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no1068/CP40no1068Def.htm

Richard was probably born before 1500 and almost certainly died long before 1592.

 

Thanks for the input, Vance.

Yeah, the dates before Thomas are off, because they're all pre-1500 at the latest, and I can't make edits there. I've only worked back to Thomas so far, and 1519 is a rough "latest possible" birthdate, just based on what little I've been able to work out about his children mainly. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a bit earlier. Any work you want to do there is more than welcome.

I still like my idea about George, but it's definitely a wild hair. I did notice a similar possibility though, with his "daughter Margaret, wife of Mr. Richard Digges." Margaret also doesn't appear in the Visitation, but his daughter Mary had a daughter, Margaret, who married a Richard Digges. That's an interesting coincidence if he wasn't just calling some of his grandchildren "son" and "daughter."

There's a record in 1563: Ivye, Thomas, of Kyngton, Wilts, gent
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40/1207-08

And in 
1556-8 Richard Ive of West Kington
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7504933
Messuage and land in Sherston Pinkney, late of Richard Ive, deceased, great-grandfather of complainant

I think this means that Richard's dates would be about 1495-1560, his father's about 1470-1510. Then there is an unknown Ive/Ivy, then Richard Ive/Ivy, the great-grandfather, born in about 1400-1425.

I'll wait and see if there is any other input, and see if I can find more. 


1 Answer

+2 votes
I have added some sources and adjusted the dates for Richard and the elder Thomas.
by Living Mead G2G6 Mach 7 (73.9k points)
Thank you, Vance. Great work, as always.

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