Question

Might Thomas Talbot 1652 be the father of Thomas "Charles Talbot 1677?

Comments

There are a whole lot of Talbots. Why pick this one?

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Just to add to what you already have been given. Thomas is buried in the Talbot Chapel at Longford, his memorial (and for his wife Anne Yate) says he was the eldest son of John & Frances - she died in 1652 & there were other sons after, so Thomas was not born in 1652. The memorial also mentions the only son John of Thomas & Anne. (I think that may answer the questions?)

There is a picture of it here: 

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3424342

Thomas also left a will, it’s in the Staffordshire Archives 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/61eb7f63-a6dd-4e8b-b5cf-d46426adcc82

Finally, here is Anne:

https://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/135592

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Thank you so very much! I clicked on the site but haven't figured out how to access the text of the will. I might need to pay to see it. The only other "lead" that I have is that one of the Talbots may have had an illegitimate son by a person named Susannah Phillips, but I never heard this in my family tales of the Shrewsburys and Arundells. I don't put much stock in this! I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comment. There is nothing quite as final as a burial site!

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The link to the will is just the details. It isn’t held at the National Archives. You may have to contact the Staffordshire archives if you want to see it. I’m not sure if Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent wills have been digitised and put on any of the big genealogy sites. Does anyone else know?

Answer 1

Thomas Talbot, of Longford, the son of John Talbot, 10th Earl of Shrewsbury and his second wife Frances Arundell is in Collin's Peerage of England, vol 3, p. 38 as having married Anne the daughter of Sir John Yate, and only one son of Thomas and Anne is mentioned, a John Talbot, who married but died without any issue.

The Complete Peerage, 2nd ed., vol. 11, p. 731 has a simplified genealogical chart of the Earls of Shrewsbury. It shows that when Bertram Arthur Talbot, 17th Earl of Shrewsbury  (a descendant of Gilbert Talbot, Thomas Talbot's elder half-brother) died unmarried in 1856, the next heir who succeeded as the 18th Earl of Shrewsbury was a very distant cousin, a descendant of the 2nd Earl of Shrewsbury.

If Thomas Talbot had been the father of Matthew Talbot, then it would have been one of his male line descendants who succeeded as the 18th Earl.  

I think there should be more research, for instance to find out whether his wife, Anne is Anne Yate or Anne Tate, but my feeling is that Matthew Talbot is not a descendant of Thomas Talbot, and should be disconnected.

Comments

Thanks for doing the background research on this profile John, and thank you also for suggesting Thomas' profile for England Project management and Project Protection. I agree that Mathew Talbot needs more research and possible disconnection as a son. I have not been able to find a likely profile for the person described as Thomas Charles Talbot born 1677, so if someone can post that profile ID in this thread, I would be most grateful.

Jo, England Project Managed Profiles coordinator

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Thanks Jo

I did find a Thomas Charles Talbot (born 1673) in a FamilySearch tree, where he seems to be an intermediary between Thomas Talbot and Matthew Talbot.  However there are so many impossible chronological problems, that it really can't be taken seriously.

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Thank you. The best I can find in documents shows John, 10th Earl of Shrewsbury is succeeded by his son Francis, 11th Earl, (killed in the infamous duel with the Duke of Buckingham) who was succeeded by his son Charles, 12th Earl (source for Charles is the Dictionary of National Biography). As for Thomas born 1652, I can't find an Anne Yate with a birthdate that seems to approximate one that would seem to be a good match (looked at Shropshire and Wiltshire parish records). I will try Anne Tate (lots for her on Ancestry, but that does not mean it can be documented). If there were a Thomas (father) and a Thomas (son), it might be the son that was Thomas "Charles" and not the father. Maybe, as you suggested it all ended with a son John who died young. Some of the Shrewsbury stories have a Charles as the father of Matthew Talbot (my DAR ancestor) and some call him Thomas "Charles." The original genealogy of the Talbots (to and through the Shrewsbury/Arundell line) was commissioned by my father's 1st cousin in the 1950's or 1960's. I know that my documents are authentic through Matthew's wife for the 17th century as I am a member in good standing of the Colonial Dames of the 17th century. My aunts were members of the Magna Carta Dames based on my father's cousin's research, but the other more stringent Magna Carta group does not recognize Thomas as the father of Matthew without further documentation. Better folks than I have tried to find this documentation. I don't think I can disconnect anyone  on this site though as I have never added any family members on WikiTree because I have just joined. I would never do that without proof. Again, I want you to know how much I appreciate your help. I do have Thomas, son of John and Frances on my Ancestry account because they give hints and through it I can connect to some primary sources. I will keep working on this forever probably, but I will go through other ancestors to get to a Magna Carta surety. My friend who is a DAR registrar has urged me to go through other lines.

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Thank you. I believe you are the person who sent me an email about reading my biography. I have just joined WikiTree and so have not added either the biography or my lineage. I will try to do my biography soon. I won't add any lineage on this site that I can't document. I can't "disconnect" anyone yet as I don't even know how to enter my lineage. Thanks also to John Atkinson for his comments. I have looked through Family Search as well and that gave me a little tiny thread of hope that someone, somewhere might have untangled this knot about Thomas and the hoped for Thomas "Charles". I have been very impressed with this site so far. I hope to be a worthy member.

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In this time period any person shown with a double gtiven name "Thomas Charles": should immediately be an object of some suspicion, because double given names -- first name, middle name -- were rarely employed in this time period.  This doesn't prove anything, of course, but does indicate the need for extra caution.

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Thank you. I think I responded to John thinking I was responding to you. I won't repeat that reply since it was a lengthy post and I believe you can access it on the site. I hope to research what might have happened to Royalist records during the Interregnum. Not only were the Talbots Royalists, they were also Catholics. John, 10th Earl of Shrewsbury and Frances Arundell were both. Thomas (born 1652), their son, was born during this time. Wardour Castle in Tisbury, Wiltshire was attacked and rendered non-livable. Some sources say the family then lived in Wardour House. I wonder if instead they really lived in Shrewsbury. Anyway, can you steer me to books, articles, etc. about Royalists, Catholics, and anything else that I might read that could help me understand about this turbulent time? These do not have to be records just information about what it was like for Royalists and Catholics during this time. Thank you for your help.

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The Interregnum is not an area I have delved into.  Perhaps others in this conversation can give you some good suggestions.  I'd think you'd want a general historical reference for context, but then some specific studies relating to the Arundels and Talbots.  Because there is so much mythology associated with this family, especially attempts to graft colonial Americans onto it, look for academically credible studies with modern genealogical standards focusing on primary records.

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Parliament kept good records of what happened to the estates of Royalists; they needed the money. The owners of sequestered estates had to petition for money from their estates and eventually for discharge from sequestration.

There are a number of published transcripts.

Archive books holds these 'central' records plus some from Lancaster, Durham and Northumbria

https://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Great%20Britain.%20Committee%20for%20Compounding%20with%20Delinquents%20%281643-1660%29%22

The  first volume contains this section 1773-1777

JOHN,  13th  EARL  OF  SHREWSBURY,  LADY  MARY TALBOT,  Widow  of  George,  Lord  Talbot,  his  Eldest Son,  and  FRANCIS,  14th  EARL  OF  SHREWSBURY, his  second  Son. 1773-1777

https://archive.org/details/calendarproceed00greegoog/page/1772/mode/2up?q=talbot

(haven't checked the other volumes )

Some  local records are published with different titles  I use  frequently the Minute books of the Dorset Standing Commitee; there may be a similar publication fro Shropshire.

The Dorset minutes  has several mentions of the Arundels of Wardour

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Minute_Books_of_the_Dorset_Standing.html?id=vlsJAQAAIAAJ&redir_esc=y

 wills can help explain circumstances.For example the will of Blanche Arundel ( Defender of Wardour)  who died  at the start of the protectorate mentions her straightened circumstances and that ;her bequests to her daughters are small but she still manages to leave £100 to Mary Tyrwhitt.£20 to a servant and forty shillings to six other servants. http://Ahttps://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/29854237?h=548e83lso

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Thank you very much!

Answer 2

Talbots are plagued by the "Shrewsbury Legend." The big breakdown comes with the father of Matthew Talbot of MD 1699. Almost all list Thomas Talbot either 1652 alt 1647 or Thomas Charles Talbot 1677 & Ann Tate abt 1677 as wife to either one & John 10th Earl of Shrewsbury & 2nd wife Frances Arundell as Thos.' parents. Francis died in 1652 so she can't be Thos.1677 mother, but he makes sense as Matthew's father. This might help with a record search.

Answer 3

Why does he have two names? Most English people did not have middle names in the 17th century and were not called by names other than the ones they were given. If you have a Thomas Talbot and a Charles Talbot who are recorded in records with those names, they are not the same man.

Comments

The two names are alluded to in several legends and some lineages. I really don't know why. Thanks for responding.