Comment on proposed merge of Ap_Edward-1 and Williams-24018

Question

I think that the Williams-24018 should be merged into the Ap-Edward-1 profile.  It was common during that period in Wales for names to be in the form <son> ap <father>.  Children may then have been named for the son - e.g. a son of William Ap Edward might have been named John Williams (instead of John Ap William.)

Another factor is in the source for the Williams-24018 there is a source referring to the daughter of "William ap Edward".

Then probably "Edward ap Williams" is someone thinking that Williams was the proper last name for Edward and is wrong.  (If this had been the name it would have been "Edward ap William" with no s on William.)

Comments

Williams and ap William are equivalent: they're both marked patronymics indicating descent from a William. The only difference is that one's in English, the other is in Welsh.

There's no hard and fast rule for determining which language to use for a person's primary name. You're likely to encounter the same man identified both ways in different documents. (If you go early enough, you may even find a partially or fully Latinized version, such as filius Willelmi.)

Answer 1

Hi Rick!  you have a very interesting situation there!  Looks like that is the very transition from the Welsh patronymics to the English surnames.  The children Robert, Katherine and Elizabeth use the surname Williams because their father's first name was William.  They are firmly on the patronymic system.  Robert's children have shifted over to the English surname system, using Williams as their family name right down to the present time.

Apparently Robert, Katherine and Elizabeth's father's name was William and he was the son of Edward --  that is why the memorial inscription says William ap Edward.  You have grasped all this, according to your question, but now your challenge is to help the other Profile Managers understand it -- is that what is going on?

Comments

Yes, that is it exactly.  Trying to let the managers know what I think should be done.

Answer 2

I think he's this one

https://archive.org/details/cu31924010481723/page/n131

Some people on the internet have been so confused by Welsh names, they've come to the conclusion that the Welsh write their names back to front.

Comments

William's wife Katherine Roberts is supposed to be the sister of Hugh Roberts

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Roberts-17471

https://archive.org/stream/cu31924010481723#page/n415/

The bio follows Browning, but Browning is confused - he seems to think Katherine was Hugh's widowed mother.

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Elizabeth's husband Thomas Lloyd

https://archive.org/details/cu31924010481723/page/n487

making him the brother of this one

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lloyd-996

though Glenn knew nothing about their parents.