Proposal for Welsh Naming Conventions

Question

I'm getting reading to work on medieval Welsh profiles, as a sub-Project to Euro-Aristo.  The Welsh patronymic naming system is difficult for most people, but there seems to be common ground.  We need some naming conventions, just like in the Euro-Aristo project. I propose the following:

For women:

• the patronymic would be "ferch", the word the Welsh used, not "verch", which is what the English used
• "ferch" WOULD be included as part of the LNAB
• "ferch" would lower case with a space between it and the patronymic

For men:

• the term "ap" or "ab" would be used as part of the LNAB, as in Welsh, depending on whether the father's name started with a consonant sound or a vowel sound (not actual consonant or vowel, but the sound)
• "ab" and"ap" would be lower case with a space between it and the patronymic
• Is there a need for "map" and "mab" as well?

For both men and women:

• only one previous generational patronymic would be used, not "ab Ifor ab Arutys ap Pythion."  It would be just "ab Ifor." The other names could be included in the biography.
• the patronymic WOULD be used as the LNAB, not a house name, which would be added as a category

How does this work for those knowledgeable in Welsh genealogy? I would appreciate any insights.

 

01/07/2015- Edited to clarify ferch-verch.

Comments

I have no Welsh genealogy in my lines but it's nice to know these new guidelines while working in EuroAristo !

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This is still a proposal, waiting for input.

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Vic, you rock! Thanks for taking this on.

Question: Does wikitree technology support having last names of any kind beginning with a lower-case letter?

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I've seen it in existing profiles, such as: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Du_Bois-136  Although the profile number is captalized in the url, the LNAB is "du Bois" and the CLN is "de La Haye." So, unless things have changed, that should be OK.

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Thank you!  Vic, you're the best!  Yippee! a resounding YES!

Thank you for a well-thought-out, sensible proposal which will make Welsh naming consistent! 

My favorite part is using the whole name in Last Name at Birth, with the "ferch" and "ap/ab" included, and not capitalized, space, then the patronymic.  Any other work-around sort of lies outside the goal to "use the names that people themselves would have known."

 

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I don't believe you should use "verch" instead of "ferch". It should stay true to Welsh.

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Terri, I was confused by Vic's wording as well. I *think* she's saying that the English used "verch" and the Welsh used "ferch". Vic? please clarify?

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Yes, that is correect.  The sound in Welsh seemed like a "v" to the English, so they spelled the Welsh "ferch" as "verch."  Ferch is the correct Welsh particle. I edited my proposal to clarify that.

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There is no v in Welsh. The v sound is a single f, the f sound is a double f.

Stay true to Welsh, don't use v.

Brought up in Wales, can read Welsh, have sung in Welsh, support Welsh rugby.

Is that enough?

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It is a good thing to standardize on the ferch/ap/ab usage. I spent a considerable amount of time removing them from the LNAB and adding them to the CLN.  Now I get to go through the reversal process :(  Oh, well, another project to do...

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Yea, I understand.  I did too, as we were treating them the same as Euro-Aristo.  So, once the Welsh naming guidelines are acceptable and approved, we will all be on the same page.

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I support the inclusion of ap/ab/ferch in LNAB field & gwraig in CLN field. However, there seems to be a question about technical issues, so I posted the following under WikiTech:

http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/142847/there-technical-problem-profiles-having-ferch-field-gwraig

Cheers, Liz

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It sounds more or less like the Dutch naming convention and they work fine http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Project:Dutch_Roots/Naming_Convention

 see :http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Op_'t_Rot-13

 

Answer 1

Would the Current last name (CLN) be different from the LNAB?

Comments

Good question.  I would think that, since they were known by the patronymic name, the LNAB and the CLN would be the same. Any other ideas?

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i know you proposed putting the house names as a category but where Princes or Kings of various parts of Wales are concerned, I'm wondering about putting that name in the CLN, if only as a way of hopefully warding off duplicates?

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As with Scots, Irish, Vikings etc, there's a danger of inventing patronymics for people who didn't actually use one, and implying a genealogy that may not be true.  Secondary sources are full of them.

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In Euro-Aristo, are house names added to the Other Nicknames field?  (maybe I am uninformed)

If so, would house names also be added to Other Nicknames in Welsh profiles?

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From what I've seen in EuroAristo, with regard to house names, it depends on the family.  Some families were decided to use the house name as the LNAB; others use it in the other nicknames field or the other last name field.

I'm 100% in favor of standardization for the Welsh names, and once it's been decided/agreed on, we will add it to the page of naming standards for both general Wikitree and EuroAristos.

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I think I'm confused now about house names and what I originally intended.

An example of what I was suggesting is Maredudd ap Bleddyn, Prince of Powys.

ap Bleddyn would be is LNAB.

could Powys be his CLN or would there just be a category for the Kings and Princes of Powys?

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Powys could be his CLN if that's what people decide/agree on.  I'd be more inclined to have LNAB and CLN the same and have a category for Powys...

Answer 2

My take is that (the rules specific to EuroAristo's notwithstanding) patronymics are properly the equivalent of Last Name at Birth - that is, at least in theory, the name they were born/baptised under - and more importantly what you would find on original records. When/if a family name was adopted it would go in the Current Last Name Field (or Other Last Names if appropriate) like any other name change during a person's life.

I too have no expertise in Welsh genealogy, but your guidelines by and large make sense to me, particularly as the ap/ab/map/mab often became part of the 'Anglicized' surnames when people migrated. It also helps to make it additionally clear that it is a patronymic.

Your mention of multiple generations of patronymics is actually quite an interesting topic on it's own - for example I have an ancestor who in baptismal records appears as Aaltje daughter of Peter Rijkerts - she appears variously in subsequent records as Aaltje Peters(sen), Aaltje Rijkerts(sen), Aaltje Peters Rijkerts(z), and (after the adoption of family names) Aaltje Peters van Luiting.

If her last name at birth was simply to be entered as the parent (i.e. LNAB of Peter Rijkerts, rather than as just Peters(sen)) it would potentially make recognizing duplicates and connections with other siblings much easier - and in a literal sense it follows the spirit of using the name 'as it was recorded' at the time of birth.

Comments

I agree that if the person angicized the name, that would go in the CLN.  So, when Adam ap Rhys adopts the name Price, that would be the CLN, the same as for anyone else who goes by a different name.

Answer 3

Great idea, Vic. My family name originated in Wales, making your proposl really helpful. Would part of this also involve going back and "correcting" existing profiles? I know that would be a slow process, but having them use the same convention would help the tree. Also, possibly having a tag on correct/corrected profiles would prevent future editing.

Comments

Yes, EuroAristo did that. We would either merge into the correct LNAB or correct it.  Also, I would expect that these profile would be project protected, so the the correct LNAB could not be merged away. And of course, there would be a neat project badge, probably with a flag of the Reg Dragon:

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we could tag profiles with the correct LNAB field as Category:ap and Category:ferch (if lowercase is allowed, otherwise Category:Ap & Category:Ferch)... Or should that be Category:ap/ab (or Category:Ap/Ab)?

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hmm. third category would be needed also for non-ap/ab/ferch names... Category:Cymru Project - Correct LNAB (Category:Wales Project - Correct LNAB ?)

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In exploring the new (to me) index page, I discovered a couple of apThomas profiles. So I created a category that mirrors the EuroAristo's: "Category: Cymru - Profiles with incorrect LNAB". Hope y'all find it of use.

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Liz, That is what the category Cyrmu 742-1535 was for: profiles that belong in Cyrmu that might have the wrong LNAB..  Once the LNAB is correct, the project template is attached, then once the profile has the correct parents, spouses and kids, the category is changed to Cymru 742-1535 Project.  May that is too complicated. Your way of doing it miught be better.

Answer 4

I apologize for being ''late'' to the discussion, illness has kept me away from the computer and I have only been completing merges through my phone or ipad to keep from inconviencing other Wikitreers.

Anyway, as to the LNAB - and using the prefix - the more 'readable' of the databases I have come across do not use the prefix, an example is this one:
http://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/i98.htm#s2925 - this method helps in sorting the names in the database, it eliminates the need to decide upon map/mab/ap/ab, etc... [diehard genealogists that I have come across get all antsy when the incorrect prefix is used], AND it puts all siblings under the same LNAB when doing a surname search. 

More importantly, to me, this method keeps those on the 'cusp' - when the LNAB was standardized in Wales - grouped together instead of scattered through different (3 or more) surnames indexes.

If Wikitree were a non-digital collection it would not be necessary to consider these things when setting last names... but I do feel we should follow the example of  Our Royal, Titled, Noble, and Commoner Ancestors & Cousins since Wikitree IS a digital collection. 

In hard-copy resource texts, Welsh ancestors are indexed according to the given name at birth, since we use the surname as the method of indexing on Wikitree this does cause a problem with the groups that use the patronymic naming system.

I ran across this book, The Surnames Of Wales - Updated & Expanded , while piddling about on the pc... it seems to follow the 'not using prefix' for cataloging and indexing the last name at birth ... I have just ordered a copy so I am not completely sure of this, I am going by the listing of surnames on the website.

 

I do hope the Project Leaders will reconsider this naming rule before too many changes are made to the database, but I will gladly follow up and rename my profiles if it remains the same.

Comments

Although the Project has already launched with the new naming conventions, not many names have been changed so using a LNAB without a particle is a change that could be made fairly easily.  But, if we change, it must be done soon.

The CLN would still include the particle unless there is another, better CLN.

For:

• ease of indexing and looking up
• all children of one person would have the same LNAB, not some with ferch and some with ap
• less work to "regularize" profiles
• easier for people used to Euroaristo naming guidelines

Against:

• the patronymic would not be as easy to find/follow, especially for someone who married or who used a different name
• the LNAB not would reflect the name they actually used as the time
• people who changed to anglicized names and women who married would only get the patronymic in the Other Lastnames field.

I'm sure there are more agruments pro and con.  I would appreciate input from everyone, even if you don't intend to participate in the project.

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I'm for keeping the particles in the LNAB.

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John, could you say more, please?

Answer 5

Just saw this profile ... http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Morley-92 - the use of ''ap'' creates an odd combination when it is listed as the ''current last name'' for wife.

Comments

I'm not sure what else to do.  Her maiden name was Morley.  She married Thomas ap Gwilym. I understood that Welsh wives took their husband's name.  As she wasn't the daughter of Gwilym, she shouldn't be ferch Gwilym.  I thought, as Thomas's LNAB was ap Gwilym, having her CLN as ap Gwilym worked.  Is there a better way of doing it?

We're still early in the Cymru project, so any suggestions would be appreciated.

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If we are to use ''ap'' in the preferred LNAB - then it follows we should stick with Welsh naming rules and use ''gwraig'' (or ''ngwraig/wraig'' - we will have to pick one of the 3) which is Welsh for "woman/wife" - as the CLN for married women to eliminate having a woman indexed with CLN as 'son of' her father-in-law.

To to me it makes sense to use the ''descriptives'' in the preferred name for all Welsh profiles ... this way Maud could be listed as ''Maud gwraig [preferred name] Thomas [CLN]''

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Though she should be listed as Maud gwraig Thomas ap Gwilym.

 

We we are trying to fit Welsh names into modern standards for an Internet database.  Since we can't index by first name, which is how most real world texts have them listed in the Index, we need to decide - do we keep with the Welsh naming rules or do we modernize and list the descriptives (ap/ferch/gwraig) in the Preferred Name on the profiles?

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I have no problem with using "gwraig." So, her CLN would be "gwraig Thomas ap Gwilym", correct?

If there is no objection to that addition to the Welsh naming convientions, I will add it. As it is only a change in the CLN, it won't have much effect.

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I'm curious at what point the Welsh "devolved" into using English-style surnames. 

This book says that ap/ferch gave way to English-style surnames around the turn of the 17th century, and didn't really just "switch over" when Henry VIII's court decided they should.

But, for instance, what should this profile's data points be for CLN, LNAB and other names? 

To me, it looks not so good right now. It reads at the top as "Thomas Morgan Lord Llanfry Maddock formerly Maddox", and this man lived supposedly from 1550-1630. In fact, in his line, the names are so mangled that it is difficult to know what the correct name is for any of the people. Now, perhaps I'm picking on some relatively poor profiles with respect to naming (as well as sourcing), but still, I think that it's going to get ugly quickly.

It seems to me that the only way to do this reasonably well would be for Wikitree to allow a complete override of the full name, skipping its attempt to piece it together from other data fileds, such that one can spell it out properly, rather than trying to combine several fields into a mangled mess of a name.

In fact, I think that would go a long way to helping with a lot of older profiles and those from different cultures -- not just for the Welsh. Couldn't we have a field that allows us to write someone's name out the way they would have referred to themselves and thus causing wikitree to "punt" on the technology of assembling them from smaller data fields? If Wikitree is to be a truly global tree some day, the conventions being used in the naming really need to be just one of the options. I haven't searched, but I suspect there aren't many Chinese profiles in Wikitree, for instance.

When does Wikitree anticipate overhauling naming so that the world's variation in conventions can be made reasonable? The only answer to me seems to be that one be allowed to just write someone's full name into a field. Older Welsh names are really just the tip of the iceberg...

--Daphne (with an eventual vested interest, but only wishing she actually could speak Welsh)

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Excellent point (re: complete name field) for most patronymic names are indexed in  books by the Given Name instead of the Last Name At Birth. 

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I like the use of (and spelling of) "gwraig" with the husband's given name ap dad's name for the CLN field. Although it gets a bit long when her name hasn't been anglicized, I still like it (see http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Verch_Maredudd_Dwnn-1 ).  I don't speak Welsh - is gwraig the best choice for spelling? It's what I've seen mostly in references, but Michelle mentioned two other spellings.

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I like that profile's names, too. Seems accurate. Like or not, women started out as some man's daughter and ended up as some man's wife! :)

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Liz, I took "gwraig"  for the CLN from Michele's suggetion above on April 9, so that is what I have been using.  If there were other options, I must have missed them.

I do like using a married name as you can see exactly who her father was and who her husband was (even if it is through the men.)

Answer 6

Just received my copy of The Surnames of Wales by John & Sheila Rowland. It deals with the history of the modern surnames and goes into depth about the patronymic naming system of Wales.

I have only skimmed through it - but the index & glossary do not use the gender identifier when alphabetizing the surnames.  It would make for an abundance of 'A/F/V' names in the index that would hamper research, imo.

Comments

It occurs to me that I've never seen a Scottish phone book...

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Ha! Neither have I - I am picturing  a  modern phone book of ancient Wales - there would only be A - listing all the males & V (or F) - listing all the females.

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Watkins Ap_Thomas_ap_David_Llyod-1

Considering the dearth of info for this profile, I'm grateful for this LNAB! Once I figure out more about who he is, I'll check back before renaming him. Cymru project guidelines would still call for "ap Thomas" yes?

P.S. love the phonebook comment. When my late husband & I had a stop-over outside of Richmond (Virginia) one time, we got a kick out of the phonebook - pages and pages of Shifflet, Shifflett, Shifflette, Shiflet, Shiflett, Shiflette (even a few entries for variations with the "c" - Schifflett). His family came from Green County (where they'd settled during the Revolution).

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Trouble with names like that is you never know if they were actually used, or if a pedigree-monger made it up according to his own view of the genealogy, which of course could be wrong.

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For me, that is the beauty of the patronymic system - you can go back generations with one person's name.  

But we really do need to consider this —  do we want every man that is named using this system in the "A" section of our index? 

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Last time I checked the index - we have around 4 indexed pages of profiles with "ap" leading the Surname - think it's 52 profiles per page - this could easily number in the hundreds of pages if every male profile on Wikitree that was named using the patronymic system is changed.

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when you say "our index" - wikitree in general or a particular category page? If it's a category page, I could do a "go to" index that would skip the ap/ferch.

I think there's a template for an index alpha jump-to. Before there was, I had created one by hand ... I just tried editing it to jump past "van" & it didn't work - you have to have a profile to jump to. You can jump to just Van, but not past it with any precision unless it's to a profile in the list, but that would work - depending on how big the list gets, the jump-to index could be:

ap | ap Gwillam | ap Tomas | ap William | ferch | ferch Ffilup | ferch Vaughan

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http://www.wikitree.com/indexes/person/A/

 

Using the current method with Wikitree indexing by surname - we will end up with every male named using the patronymic system listed under 'A' 

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wow! I've never seen that we had index pages like that. I'm forever discovering cool stuff about WikiTree!  

but. Doesn't look like it would be wise to edit that "jump to" alphabet, even if it could be done (I can't, but I'm not a WikiTree Leader).

I'd personally really like to keep ap/ab & ferch in LNAB field. Trying to follow lines up & down that show, for instance, Thomas Thomas instead of Thomas ap Thomas, mixed with Thomas Johnes (who really is Thomas Jones, not Thomas ap John), gets me all tangled up and running for pen and paper to keep them straight. I prefer being able to easily follow who's who in the various displays, even at the cost of an unmanagable index.  At this point, I think Wiki tech needs to weigh in on whether or not oodles of profiles with ap & ferch in the LNAB field will create technical problems. If so, that decides it right there. If not, maybe we could do an ap category and a ferch category & get a pointer to them from http://www.wikitree.com/indexes/person/A/ & http://www.wikitree.com/indexes/person/F/ ?

If that sounds reasonable, I can start a new discussion under WikiTech.

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Take a look at the "extras" in the index using 'gwraig' as a lead off in a surname - it's getting messy - imo, this can hamper research. 

http://www.wikitree.com/indexes/person/G/114.html

I have used the index to search for alternate spellings of last names - one look at that page has me shaking my head.  

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ah. I think I see where you and I are disagreeing. You're looking at WikITree as a research source. I'm looking at it as a family tree. I want to see recognizable names in family group sheets & descendant lists & ancestor trees. You want to be able to find a person in an index. I feel strongly that ap/ab & ferch should be included in the LNAB. I also think that married name needs to use gwraig if husband's name is ap [something]. I think the names for http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Verch_Maredudd_Dwnn-1 are eloquent:

Headline of public profile:

Mabli (verch Maredudd Dwnn) gwraig Gruffudd ap Nicolas

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Top left column of profile if the viewing user is someone on Verch_Maredudd_Dwnn-1's Trusted List:

Mabli gwraig Gruffudd ap Nicolas formerly verch Maredudd Dwnn

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Top left column of profile if the viewing user is not on Verch_Maredudd_Dwnn-1's Trusted List:

Mabli gwraig Gruffudd ap Nicolas formerly verch Maredudd Dwnn

 

I think the display names for Maredydd-1 past the Headline on public profile are bizarre:

Headline of public profile:

Angharad verch Maredydd

Top left column of profile if the viewing user is someone on Maredydd-1's Trusted List:

Angharad Verch [middle name?] (Angharad verch) Maredydd aka verch Maredudd

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Top left column of profile if the viewing user is not on Maredydd-1's Trusted List:

Angharad Verch (Angharad verch) Maredydd aka verch Maredudd

 

I've said my say, and I'll leave the discussion for others. However, I will ask under WikiTech if including ap/ab, ferch, or gwraig isn't a good option for technical reasons.

Cheers, Liz

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A Search for any text can be done to find all the ancestral names if we list the names in the bio-section. On my profiles where I do list the father's full known line as the name - I attempt to link each name to the Wikitree profile. This keeps the index from becoming messy. Allows skipping back a few generations without having to switch tabs and allows me to compare two profiles where the first three generational names may be identical yet diverge at a later generation. 

 

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As for the difference in a search index and a family tree - a family tree is never complete - for research is an ongoing endeavor. 

 

Wikitree should be research friendly and not a static tree. 

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I agree - a family tree is never complete. I didn't say it should be a static tree.

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When we start adding multiple identifiers - instead of sticking to a basic name - ex. Rhys Foel instead of Rhys - the index in Wikitree doesn't allow clicking on the link - it only works if there's more than one profile attached to the surname.

The identifiers can be added in the CLN or Other Names and we still have a useful index for research.  

This IS needed because many times I have come across profiles that have the father's name correct but then goes off on a tangent with the grandfather or great-grandfather. If the profile is 'clickable' in the index it can give me a list to pull from without having to open a separate page or even a new window.  

The goal is to create a family tree - the more obstacles we place in doing research and merging profiles within Wikitree hampers that goal.

Answer 7

The European Aristocrats project dealt with this same issue a few years ago (before I joined Wikitree).  They decided to not use prefixes or prepositions in the LNAB field to improve the search function and cut down on duplicates.  We use the LNAB field for a single name (with a couple exceptions, such as de Vere), the CLN field for the 'married' name, and the OLN field for what I'd say was their 'true' last name (except that they didn't use last names back then...).

I came across this post from 20 years ago on soc.genealogy.medieval:  http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/1995-09/0811805168

"The difference between "ap" and "ab" is the sound which follows it. We do the same in the English language with "a bicycle" and "an orange". The
spelling and pronunciation of the indefinite article changes depending on whether it preceeds a vowel sound or a consonant sound.

"In Welsh, "ap" comes before a consonant sound, thus "Einion ap Llywelyn", "Jenkin ap Gruffudd", "Llywarch ap Bran". "Ab", on the other hand, comes before a vowel sound, thus "Maredudd ab Einion", "Huw ab Owain".

"The reason I said "vowel sound" and not "vowel" is that in certain circumstances the initial letter "I" in Welsh can sound like a consonant. Thus "Rhys ap Iorwerth" and "Dafydd ap Ieuan". Kind of like in English where an initial "U" can sound like a consonant. We say "a university", not "an university".

"As you would expect, not everybody knows enough Welsh to handle patronyms properly, so you'll find lots of variations in the forms, even among people who write on Welsh genealogies."

I would agree that you will have confusion with people using the wrong patronym resulting in duplicates. For that reason, I'd be in favor of handling it in the same way the EuroAristo project handles it.  Once it's decided, please let me know so that I can change our project page, since we do reference Welsh names on it.

Darlene - Co-Leader, European Aristocrats Project

Answer 8

I have many Welsh ancestors and no knowledge of how the language works.

Please do it as you propose, Vic, and thank you millions for all the good work!

Answer 9

Many arguments have been made for not including the particles in the names of people cover by the Cymru Project.  Here are some reasons to include them:

• These are the names people actually used.  John wasn't called John Lewis; he was called John ap Lewis. It is a patronymic and should be treated the same as Matt Johnson, the son of John Peterson.
• Having the ap, ab or ferch in the LNAB makes it EASIER to find the person you are looking for.  There are over 100 people with the name John Lewis on Wikitree. Even though Lewis is a very common Welsh name (and most Welsh surnames are very common), there will be many fewer people with the name John ap Lewis, making the right one easier to find in the index.
• The particle ISN'T the same as "de" or "von" in the EuroAristo Project, where the decision was made there not to include the particle in profiles that are part of the Project.  In earlier European nobility, the particle was a geographic designation.  It did not relate to a person's ancestry. It was not really part of the person's name, and it could change, depending on what territory the person acquired.  
• Just as in the Categorization Project, in which each country can have its own categorization structure, each Project should be able to have naming conventions that apply to the Project.  The New Netherlands Project has a set of naming conventions that are not the same as the EuroAristo conventions.  
• We don't impose the EuroAristo conventions on people who are not part of that Project. So, if someone's name was "von Trapp", and they are not in the EuroAristo Project, we don't say that they must be named just Trapp.  My von Herberg friends are very proud of their name, and they would be insulted to find out that WikiTree would only accept them as Herbergs.  And the Vander Groef's would probably be upset, too, not to mention the L'Hommedieus.  Wikitree is America-centric. Let's try to accomodate other cultures. There are constant questions about how to deal with double Spanish surnames, but that is another problem.
• If a person has an androgenous name, such as Denys, which makes it difficult to determine whether the person is male or female, you can tell instantly if you use the particle. If the name is ap Lewis, he is male; if it is ferch Lewis, she is female.  Once the determination is made and the profile's LNAB is PPPd, you don't have to check every time you look at the profile.
• The argument that users won't understand or use the particles correctly is erroneous.  The fact that people don't do something according to guidelines does not mean the standards should be changed to match the knowledge or ability.  Wikitree should be a place where things are done right, not just done to meet the lowest common denominator or the upload of previous GEDCOMs.  We need to educate Wikitreers, not just accept a lack of knowledge as the norm.  Many people have continued to create profiles that belong in the EuroAristo Project, using names that don't meet the guidelines.  I haven't heard anyone express the thought that the guidellines should be changed to avoid the problem.

Comments

Vic, would the problem be solved of "ap Surname" was used in the CLN?

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Currently, the LNAB and the CLN are the same except for married women and for those who changed their names.  If the "ap" is included in the CLN and not in the LNAB, the display looks odd: you have Seisyll (Cynfyn) ap Cynfyn.  And if the person later changed his name to drop the ap, he is merely Cynfyn, so you have no "ap" anywhere.  There is the ugly way once used on EuroAristo profiles of giving him the First Name of "Seisyll ap" and the LNAB of Cynfyn.  Using that method, if he changed his name from Adam ap Rhys to Adam Price, depending on the display, he shows up as Adam ap (Rhys) Price, and in some places as Adam ap Price, which is wrong.

Answer 10

The proposal certainly seems true to the Welsh usage, which is a plus, and once the policy is official I'll be glad to look through my own Welsh ancestors to make them consistent.

That we're having the discussion continues to reflect WikiTree's mixing of three different naming functions:

1.  Indexing -- we need a simple, non-duplicative WikiTree ID for each person.  Keeping it simple is I think one reason Euro-Aristo wanted the surname "de Mortimer" to simply have a WikiTree ID/LNAB of "Mortimer."  Such a principle would tend to favor "Iorweth" rather than "ab Iorweth".  But indexing need only operate within the guts of the program, it doesn't actually have to be seen.

2.  Search -- an argument for entering both LNAB and CLN in the data field is so that the computer can search on both.  But ideally, the search function would be modified to a google type search function that could search the WikiTree database for any word in a profile including the narrative, or string of words.  The search function is still spotty;  I just created an unnecessary duplicate profile because the search function didn't find an identical name already in the system.  

3.  Display -- we make unnecessary problems when we want the display to reflect the WikiTree ID and search necessities.  As a result, an English noble name that in common usage would be "John Smith, Lord Montford" shows up in WikiTree's display as 'John "Lord Montford" Smith'.  

If it can be figured out how to untie these three functions from each other, we would have more flexibility to assure proper, unique indexing, rapid comprehensive search, and display of the name the way the original user would have wished!

Comments

Jack, The naming conventions have been official since the Cymru Project launched in March.  After the Project launched, there has been an ongoing discussion about changing them, but they are still currently in effect.