Can we add some guidelines on the use of Mr/Mrs/Ms in the namefields help?

Question

In the help page for the prefix field

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Name_Fields#Specific_Rules_for_Individual_Name_Fields

it states "This is for a name prefix or title such as Mrs, Sir, Dr, Gov, Sgt, etc...If a person has multiple prefixes or titles use the highest, last or preferred one, e.g. Capt over Lt.." I'd like to change this by adding a line like:

"Honorifics like Mr, Mrs, or Ms, should rarely be used, except in cases where there are official contemporary records showing that they were referred to this way in their communities. The use of these honorifics was not necessarily common in all times and places."

It's been discussed before (including here: http://www.wikitree.com/g2g/449262/mr-mrs-miss-prefixes and here: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/159803/should-mr-mrs-or-miss-be-used-as-a-prefix-on-a-profile) that including an honorific by default can be a problem. It almost never adds genealogical value. It's a pretty modern convention to apply it to everyone. And in cases where a particular respected person was distinguished in a community as "Mr Smith", you obscure some potentially important information if you call everyone "Mr".
 

Answer 1

I agree, they should not be used at all. It is not an acceptable genealogical standard and causes search confusion. It is best handled in " also known as " or in the biography or notes.

Comments

I note that as of April 2022 the Help text for Name Fields is still giving "Mrs" as an example of a prefix!

Answer 2

I agree with you , Brad. But there may be occasions when titles can become useful- "Ms. Randie Thomas" might designate a female  and "Mr. Leslie Thompson" might be appropriate for designating a male. I do realize that gender is requested on a profile, but for ready identification, an honorific title would work faster.

Comments

The honorifics don't show up in the search results, they only show on the profile page. So I don't think it helps to distinguish sex in any useful way.

I don't think there's a huge problem with the honorifics, per se, except that they add clutter. And I don't think adding tons of unsourced, possibly historically inaccurate "information" is a good idea. I feel like Mr and Mrs are usually being added on because some people think it's more formal, or polite, or something. And it would be nice to have clear guidelines about their use.

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Agree with you, Brad.

Answer 3

I cannot see that these add any value to the profile.

Comments

Have to disagree with you there, Lynda.  Folks in 18th, 17th, and 16th century England would disagree with you there, too.

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I'm curious. I thought that Mr and Mrs weren't used generally until about the late 19th century? And weren't ever commonly used in legal or vital documents, except in cases where a person was a lawyer, or some other respected profession.

I might be wrong. Per the terms of my question, I'm only speaking about adding some guidelines against including them by default on all profiles, the way some people do.

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So when would you add Mrs to a profile Ros? I struggle a little to see how it can be relevant in the naming system when we have a focus on registering people with their LNAB. The designation of Mr. or Mrs. is only appropriate in adulthood and not through the whole life. In childhood they would have been Master and Miss. The system does not cater to both variants as far as I can see.

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Brad, although I don't use them in the prefix field, the terms are found in many  earlier parish registers.They denote the family of local gentry. (as does the  also frequently found, suffix esquire ) Mrs doesn't mean a married woman either.  It is a contraction of Mistress.  The daughter of a local gent may be referred to as Mrs in the entry for her marriage as  may a  70 year old spinster at her burial.

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In which case it makes sense to put the information in the biography, but not in the prefix field.

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The use of Mr by local gentry, or as a military rank, is exactly the kind of case where it might be important to include the honorific. And this is why I think it's bad practice to include it by default. To misquote the Incredibles, "If everyone is a Mr, then no one is".

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Just for information, to add to the mix. There is another exception not noted elsewhere on this page: surgeons in the UK were always known as Mr (and  now also as Miss, Ms and Mrs)  but  not Dr. (it dates back to the old barber surgeons) https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/patient-care/surgical-staff-and-regulation/qualifications-of-a-surgeon/ "Why are surgeons in the UK called Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs, rather than Dr?"

Answer 4

When people import John Smith and his wife Mrs John Smith (aka Unknown Unknown) it would be useful to keep the Mrs, even though she was never called that.

Comments

That's maybe one way in which an honorific might be useful. But, again, it doesn't really help in any the search function, because it doesn't show up on any display except the actual profile page.

It's not edge cases I'm worried about. It's more, having a suggested style guideline that says Mr and Mrs honorifics shouldn't be used by default, except in cases where they serve a purpose (and, better, are recorded in sourced documents).

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An aside, RJ has evoked a memory... gravestone in the (old) Catholic cemetery of Port Townsend, Washington which refers to a person as "Mrs. "Robert Jones" but nothing about the wife's first or last names at birth. Odd.

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Dorothy, you have just given me a challenge. That cemetery is couple blocks down the street.  Going to try and find out who she is and give her an identity of her own, on WikiTree. There must be some clues at the Research Center.

eta: or not - just checked the records and no longer a headstone for a Robert Jones, or Mrs.  :(

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Patricia, it's a tall granite stone located toward the middle of the cemetery. We're still in CA or I'd try to meet you there. BTW, we live on Gise just up the hill. Thanks, cuz 'n neighbor!

 You can still  find her...I just used her spouse's "name"  as a made up name since I couldn't remember the original...it's still there! Tall stone near those sunken older graves.

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It's a beautiful day for a cemetery walk - will go find her.. See from the online records, that they have a few Mrs. hubby name.  If I can find their names, it could be a good WT category "She has a name!!!"   Imagine Laurel Grove has many Mrs ..... also.

Answer 5

Mister is a Military rank in the US Armed Forces

Comments

Small correction.  Mister is not a rank, but it is a form of address for warrant officers.

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Wikipedia 

In the United States Military, warrant officers and chief warrant officers are addressed as Mister by senior commissioned officers. In the United States Navy and United States Coast Guard it is proper to use Mister to refer to commissioned officers below the rank of lieutenant commander, or to subordinate commissioned officers, though the use of Mister implies familiarity compared to the use of rank title for an unknown officer. Women officers below the rank of lieutenant commander may be addressed as Miss,Ms. or Mrs. as appropriate.

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Eddie,  I learn something new from you every time you post!

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Right---so Mr can be useful on some profiles. But not as a default on all profiles, where it can obscure real information.

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Eddie, you might know this---who would we talk to if we decided to edit the help page?

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Probably Miss Eowyn first for permission. ;-}

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I'm going to edit ME !  But instead of "mister" put " X-Treme"

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Eddie: "Thumbs up."

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Maestro Eddie King?

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Maestro is green. I'm brown, dude

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestro_(comics)

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How chromatically insensitive of me, bro.

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*giggles at above thread* I love you guys.

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Small correction.  Mister is not a rank, but it is a form of address for warrant officers.

commented May 1, 2018 

This comment is correct.

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Mister is a Military rank in the US Armed Forces

answered May 1, 2018 by Eddie King G2G6 Pilot (384k points)

This comment is incorrect. Mister (and its variants) are NOT military ranks. 

They are merely forms of address used when verbally addressing certain military personnel individually. Eddie’s comment is as wrong as it would be to call “Sir” or “Ma’am” military ranks. They are not. 

This is equivalent to “Mrs.” when addressing a married woman (or calling her husband “Mr.”) and forms of address have no place in the names database here on Wikitree. 

This is in contrast to say “Sir” which for our purposes is NOT a form of address, but a formal prefix permanently concatenated into certain peoples’ names. 

We should update this erroneous thread before it confuses people into making mistakes and wasting their (and other peoples’) time correcting profile name errors.

Answer 6

Thanks for all the feedback! So I should ask Eowyn to include something like?:

"Honorifics like Mr, Mrs, or Ms, should not be used by default. Try to reserve their use for cases where they were used for an official purpose, for instance for surgeons (primarily UK), local gentry (UK), or warrant officers (US, UK military). There may be other rare cases where the honorific serves to clarify genealogical relationships."

Edit: I asked, but no response ... if someone else wants to try? aka King Leader Eddie?

Comments

Yes, I agree but note  warrant officers in the UK are also known as Mr.

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:) Thanks. Fixed.