Which line are we related?

+6 votes
223 views

I have a cousin on Ancestry (she messaged me several months ago) who had taken the Ancestry DNA test much earlier than I.  When she had contacted me about Harriet B. Waters who married Brown cousins, she had questioned about Harriet's parents (I had a different set).  I told her I was just spitballing as I didn't know for sure.  She had Harriet's parents as William W. Waters (marked as not proven) and Lydia Orcelia Morse.  Lydia is sister to Sophronia (who is my cousin's g g grandmother).  Both sisters married a Morse whom my cousin believes to be brothers.  Here is what she wrote to me: "My dilemma is- are we related through Orcelia, who I know is sister to my great great grandmother, Sophronia Morse, or are we related through William Waters who married Orcelia Morse and who I believe is brother to David Waters who married Sophronia Morse? I don't know how we can tell!"

I have taken the Ancestry DNA and here's the breakdown as it relates to hers:

GEDmatch.Com Autosomal Comparison - V2.1.1(c)
Comparing Kit A409969 (Lucinda Shephard) and A909488 (*kcameronnovak)

Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 500 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 250 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 7.0 cM


Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
15 36,983,897 55,536,592 14.8 2,270
15 63,444,687 75,750,942 14.5 1,443
15 91,547,518 95,814,729 14.7 1,123
Largest segment = 14.8 cM
Total of segments > 7 cM = 44.0 cM
3 matching segments
Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 4.2

402152 SNPs used for this comparison.

So, how can we tell which way we are related? Or can we? Other IDs: [[Waters-4705]], [[Morse-4885]]

WikiTree profile: Hattie Brown
in Genealogy Help by Cindy Shephard G2G6 Mach 1 (14.5k points)

1 Answer

+5 votes
Hi, Cindy. Based on the information you have, it really isn't possible to tell for certain. Results from additional cousins and triangulation would be needed. However, it may be possible to make an educated guess to help steer the research.

If I'm reading the relationships correctly, Lydia Orcelia is your 3g-grandmother, and her sister, Sophronia, is your newly-discovered cousin's 2g-grandmother. That means the MRCA would be the sisters' parents; 4g-grandparents and 3g-grandparents respectively. Which makes you and your new contact 4th cousins 1x removed.

Ordinarily, finding a reasonable amount of measurable, shared DNA between even 4th cousins can be an iffy proposition. The theoretical average sharing at that level would be 13.28 cM; published results from 23andMe indicate a range of sharing between 4.76 and 34 cM. At 4th 1x, the theoretical average would be only 6.64 cM.

The bottom line is that, if you're confident in the degrees of relationship I described, the only practical way the DNA sharing of 44 cM aligns with being 4th cousins 1x removed is if there were familial intermarriages along the line. Lydia and Sophronia having brothers as husbands could be a possible explanation.

Happy hunting!
by Edison Williams G2G6 Pilot (445k points)
Edison is saying that you should look for additional  common ancestors, as your DNA match is a bit too good for a 4th cousin once removed.

I agree, but I also want to say that I've seen a couple of similarly strong matches between people whose most recent common ancestor is much earlier than the data suggest, but who have extensive ancestry in early colonial New England. The early New England settlers were an endogamous population, so i think it's likely that some DNA matches are stronger than expected due to a multiplicity of shared ancestors back in early generations where all of us have more than a few Unknowns.
Precisomundo, Ellen! No, really; that's a word. I've used it in Scrabble. Cough, cough.

"Endogamy" should be the word of the day for August 26. Strictly defined it's an anthropological or sociological term dealing with a custom of marrying within a cast, clan, or tribe. The definition is extended a bit (logically so) in genealogy, where it encompasses not only social mores but also geography: intermarriage driven by a physically limited population set.

As Ellen mentioned, early colonial New England is a classic example, as are various island populations. But the westward expansion in the U.S. saw similar environments. For example, Alabama did not open to settlers until the end of the War of 1812, and the first immigrants--often in conjunction with other families with whom they already had close association--began arriving in 1814, three years before the U.S Congress even created the Alabama Territory. Not exactly tons of 5,000-people towns with a broad spousal gene pool.

Most genealogists are used to, and comfortable with, family tree representations that look like massive organizational charts: neatly organized boxes marching two-by-two: two parents, they each having two parents, your having a total of eight grandparents and 16 great-grandparents and so on. Traditional trees and fan charts are dependent upon that tidy organization. In fact, it's difficult for many family tree software applications to represent things any other way and, I've found, difficult for some family researchers to mentally envision it organized differently.

In truth, though, many of our family trees--if inspected from the standpoint of biology and DNA--look more like hurricane spaghetti models (a subject near to me right now...literally). Relationships and ancestors overlap, and marriages within the same families are far from uncommon (as in Cindy's situation where two brothers may have married two sisters; reminds me of the old musical Seven Brides for Seven Brothers...go do those families' DNA charts).

The situation is exceedingly common, yet very difficult for us to deal with. Quick, without stopping to think about it: if your great-grandparents were 2nd cousins, what's the precise descriptive term for your grandfather's sister? And making a DNA consanguinity table for a situation where one set, whether 1st or 5th, of cousins marry isn't a difficult thing. But now assume a couple of generations before there was a another cousin intermarriage, and a generation later two brothers marry two sisters, and a generation later still a woman's husband dies and his brother takes her and her children in, and they marry, and have more children. A Jamie and Circe Lannister situation would at least be much more straightforward.  ;-)

But the spaghetti model family tree is reality for many of us, whether we know it or not. With autosomal DNA coming into the picture in the past few years, we have to stay cognizant of it. The more triangulated matches we can document, the better able we are to analyze certain sharing "outliers" when they come along, and to use the information to add dimensions to the understanding of our family trees.
The analogy I like to use for parts of my family tree is not of spaghetti, but of a braided or anastomosing stream that divides and comes back together, and incorporates new tributaries along its course. (More terms for a "word of the day" lesson.)

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