Quebec women's "Other names" (not related to dit names) [closed]

Question

Sorry if this has been asked before but I couldn't find a specific answer to this question. I know that Quebec women did not take their husband's last name at marriage so is it correct to list the husband's last name as an "other name" on their profiles?

I was just looking at one of my ancestors, Jeanne Rossignol (Crossonneaux-1) and it seems quite cluttered since she was married four times. I made a comment on the profile but the answer I got wasn't what I expected. I haven't done this with any of my other French relatives so I may need to make a lot of changes if this is the correct method.

Answer 1

It is my understanding that husband’s last names should not be listed as they never used them. “Other last names” should be alternate spellings, dite names, etc.

Comments

Thanks. That is what I thought too. Maybe someone from the Filles du Roi project needs to look at it.

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To add to Liza's answer, some women did use the husband's name in some contexts but it should never be assumed that they did. Only add it if there is some documentation that shows the woman did sometimes get referred to that way.

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FYI, these answers are counter to what experienced researchers on the profile expressed in the profile comments.

If it were me, I wouldn't touch the OLN fields of this profile.

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No, I wouldn't make changes like that either even if the profile wasn't PPP without consulting the manager first. I still don't agree but that is up to them. I was simply looking for other viewpoints.

Answer 2

If I am moving the husbands last name from Current last name (for French women who kept their names), then I put the husbands last name in Other last names.  Long ago it was suggested that I do that so as not to offend the person who put it there in the first place.  I don't think it's a requirement to keep it or to delete it, and perhaps it could facilitate a search if someone else is unaware of the naming practice.  I didn't know about it at first and so probably made early search errors and name entry errors.

Answer 3

Following traditional French custom, Quebec women did not change their legal names upon marriage, but were referred to by their husband's surname in common speech. With the British Conquest and especially with the establishment of Canada in laste 19th, british rules and customs came forth especially with dealings with the Federal government. Quebec having it's own civil laws from the Napoleon code. So in short, Quebec's population needed to play with both sets of rules. This latter practice fell out of favour following the Quiet Revolution, and spouses now retain their surnames after marriage in all contexts.

As per the Government's, in Québec, both spouses keep their surname after they marry. In other words, you must use the surname you were given at birth to exercise your civil rights, for example

• when you sign a contract,
• or apply for a driver's licence.

Even if you married outside Québec but you are domiciled in Québec, you must exercise your civil rights using the surname you were given at birth.

However, in your social life you can, if you wish, use your spouse's surname.

WOMEN MARRIED PRIOR TO APRIL 2, 1981

If you are a woman and married prior to April 2, 1981, you are entitled to use your spouse's surname to exercise your civil rights, provided your were already doing so at that date.

However, if you decide to exercise your civil rights under your own name, you must first notify the relevant departments and agencies.

For more information, consult a legal advisor.

source : https://www.justice.gouv.qc.ca/en/couples-and-families/marriage-civil-union-and-de-facto-union/marriage/married-name/#:~:text=Even%20if%20you%20married%20outside,wish%2C%20use%20your%20spouse's%20surname.

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To this day, in France, It is common for women to adopt their husband's family name at marriage, though this is not a legal requirement. In some cases, the wife may adopt a hyphenated surname, made by joining her family name and her husband's family name. Until 2005, French children were required to take the last name of their father. If the father was unknown, they could take their mother's last name. Fortunately, today all families have the choice and can also hyphenate their child's last name. In many cases, de/du/de la in a French last name is a sign of nobility.

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I was working for the Gouvernement du Québec as a certified French-English translator when the rule was added to the Civil Code of Québec when the revised Code came into force in 1994. By that time, in government correspondence, the title “Mademoiselle” (“Miss”) was no longer used. All men and boys were “Monsieur” (“Mr.”) and all women and girls were “Madame” (“Ms.”). In fact, there was never a legal basis in Québec law for a woman to adopt the husband’s name upon marriage; it was a social convention and mirrored the custom in English Canada.

Article 5 of the revised Civil Code says (in the official French version): “Toute personne exerce ses droits civils sous le nom qui lui est attribué et qui est énoncé dans son acte de naissance.” Which in the official English version is: “Every person exercises his civil rights under the name assigned to him and stated in his act of birth.” (Note that the masculine pronoun is used in laws for both sexes except where a person could only be a woman.)

An opt-out regulation was adopted allowing women married before a certain date (1984 I think ???) to have both names mentioned on their Health Insurance Card. That was done to placate some older women who were reticent about the change and to preserve the integrity of some government records after the change.

At the same time, the rule for naming children was changed so that the family name given to a child was not necessarily his father’s family name. The name can now be either a single name or a double name. If two spouses named respectively Macron and Trudeau have a child and call him Jacques, the child’s full name could be: Jacques Macron or Jacques Trudeau or Jacques Macon-Trudeau or Jacques Trudeau-Macron. When Jacques grows up and has children, they will be limited to a maximum of two names, even if Jacques has a double name and so does his spouse. In that case, each spouse can contribute a maximum of one name each to their children, thus limiting them to a either a single name (from among the four spousal names) or a double name from among the same four spousal names.

If the spouses are unable to agree on the name to be given to the child, a compound name (one of each spouse’s family names) will be assigned by the Registrar of Civil Status which, if unacceptable to the parents, can be appealed against before the Superior Court of Québec. The Court seldom overrules the Registrar.

It is very important to note that these rules are limited to a person’s legal name as it appears on government documents. There is nothing to prevent a women, for example, from using only her husband’s name as a social convention.

In fact, anyone can use any name they may choose for private matters, including contracts, provided a pseudonym is not used with an intention of hiding one’s true identity for fraudulent or other unlawful purposes.

source : Benoit Evans Certified Translator (OTTIAQ) https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-that-women-cant-take-their-husbands-name-in-Quebec

Comments

indeed, I remember when the law changed, one main reason was the explosion of divorce cases, which were few and far between previously, and the massive amount of paperwork engendered by changing the names of women on things like driver's license, health care cards etc.  But it isn't particularly pertinent to the era in the question.

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Correction: there was never a Napoleonic code anywhere in Canada. Canada's civil-law legislation originally stems from the "Ancien Régime" (the Old Regime), which is the system that existed prior to the French Revolution. To give you an easy-to-remember idea of the chronology, Napoléon Bonaparte was still a teenager when the French Revolution started.

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Yes, we must specify that Quebec is the only province that has a civil code based on France's Napoleonic Code. The rest of Canada applies the common law. The Criminal Code is also a code, which is used across Canada.

The Civil Code of Lower Canada is an old Quebec law that governed the private law of Quebec from 1866. It mainly codified the customary law of Lower Canada (based on the custom of Paris) and was inspired by the " French Napoleon Code1 for the rest.

En 1857, l'Assemblée législative de la province du Canada décrète la codification des lois civiles alors en vigueur dans le Bas-Canada en s'inspirant du modèle du Code civil français de 1804. Or, Le Code civil des Français, appelé usuellement « Code civil » (souvent abrégé en « C.civ. », « C. Civ. » ou « CC »), « Code Napoléon » ou encore « Code napoléonien », est un code juridique qui regroupe les lois relatives au droit civil français.

Dates importantes de l'histoire du droit civil du Québec

1534

La France prend possession du territoire de ce qui constitue maintenant le Québec.

1664

Le roi Louis XIV décrète que la colonie sera régie par la Coutume de Paris, ce qui met fin au système de pluralité des coutumes en Nouvelle-France (comme s'appelait alors le Québec). La Coutume de Paris avait acquis à la fin du seizième siècle un caractère prééminent en France.

1759-1760

L'Angleterre conquiert militairement la Nouvelle-France.

1763-1764

Les autorités déclarent que le droit britannique s'appliquera désormais, aussi bien en matière criminelle qu'en matière civile. Cette mesure est très mal reçue par la population, qui n'hésite pas à afficher son mécontentement.

1774

Une loi du Parlement britannique -The Quebec Act, 1774 -rétablit les anciennes lois françaises en matière civile.
14 George III, chapter 83 (U. K.)

1782

Le conseil législatif de la province fixe l'âge de la majorité à 21 ans au lieu de 25.
Ordonnance qui change, fixe et établit l'âge de majorité
Ordonnances faites et passées par le gouverneur et le conseil législatif de la province de Québec, 1795, chapitre I.

1801

Le parlement de la province du Bas-Canada (le nom que portait le Québec pendant cette période) vote une loi afin de clarifier le droit à la liberté de tester.
Acte pour expliquer et amender la Loi concernant les Testaments et Ordonnances de dernière volonté
Les Statuts provinciaux du Bas-Canada, 1801, chapitre 4.

1857

Une loi intitulée Acte pour pourvoir à la codification des lois du Bas-Canada qui se rapportent aux matières civiles et à la procédure est adoptée. Cette loi prévoit la nomination de trois commissaires chargés d'unifier le droit existant et de rédiger un Code civil et un Code de procédure civile en prenant modèle sur les codes français.
Statuts de la province du Canada, 1857, chapitre 43.

1865

Le 31 janvier 1865, le projet de loi sur le Code civil du Bas Canada ainsi que le rapport des commissaires sont déposés à l'Assemblée législative. Les deux textes sont confiés à un comité de juristes pour analyse.

1866

Le projet de loi est adopté par les deux chambres du parlement de la province. Le Code civil du Bas Canada entre en vigueur le 1er août 1866.

source : https://www.justice.gc.ca/fra/pr-rp/sjc-csj/pji-ilp/hist/index.html

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_civil_du_Bas-Canada

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Correction: there was never a Napoleonic code anywhere in Canada. The Napoleonic code "is the French civil code established during the French Consulate in 1804 and still in force, although frequently amended." This was never implemented in Canada. As you may remember, the Conquest of New France happened during the Seven Year's War, over a generation before the Napoleonic code came into existence.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/conquest

Getting inspiration from the Napoleonic code is not the same as implementing it, as far as I understand, and no Canadian historian every refers to Quebec's civil law as the Napoleonic code. Countries still get inspiration from other countries when they make new legislation or amendments, so I imagine that this is in the same vein, correct me if I am wrong! As the Wikipedia article indicates, the Napoleonic code influenced the laws of many European countries. These countries do not claim to have **had** or implemented the Napoleonic code.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code

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To give you an illustrative example, the "code civil des Français" (Napoleonic Code) secularized the French State.

"Il n'en reste pas moins qu'il y a, en germe, dans le Code civil, des éléments de laïcité qui sont très nouveaux pour l'époque: c'est un code sans Dieu! Il ne reconnaît que le mariage civil, consacre le divorce et contribue certainement à la sécularisation de la société, intervenue beaucoup plus précocement en France que dans le reste de l'Europe."

https://www.lexpress.fr/societe/justice/ce-code-civil-qui-a-fait-la-france_490484.html

Canada is still not formally a secular State. There are elements of secularity in Canada, but plenty of examples of the lack of separation of Church and State. For instance, the Charter of Rights and Liberties of Canada mentions God. Most Canadian are Catholics, and Canada heavily finances the Catholic Church's activities worldwide, more so than most countries of the world, last time I have heard! This is because the feudal system still exists in Canada, and the Catholic Church owns much land and many institutional buildings as a feudal landlord.

"In Canada, neither state neutrality in matters of religion, nor the separation of church and state, is explicitly affirmed in the Constitution, but the courts have gradually inferred such principles from freedom of religion and the prohibition against religious discrimination."

https://www.mcgill.ca/law/files/law/jukier_2015_religion_and_the_secular_state.pdf

So let's not stubbornly refer to the civil laws of Quebec as the Napoleonic Code. It's not accurate.

Answer 4

I will repeat what I said before, while women kept their own names, in various documents like baptisms where they were godmothers, court cases where they were witnesses etc, they got listed as ''xyz abc, wife (or widow) of egh''.  So it was actually part of the identification process for them.  

It is also useful to have the spousal name in other last name box for search purposes.  Jeanne Rossignol is a case in point, her LNAB and the name she mostly used here differ, not everybody will know that when searching for their ancestors.  If they don't know what her name was at birth, and only know the name of the husband, then they will still be able to find her.

Comments

Before I start, I want to make it clear that I have no intention of starting an argument or changing any profiles that are currently recorded this way. I'm not questioning your expertise. I am simply expressing my viewpoint and attempting to get you to understand it.

I agree that is is a part of the identification process but that still doesn't make it part of their name, any more than saying Jean Belanger, the farmer to differentiate him from Jean Belanger, the soldier or Jean Belanger, brother of the bride.

To use your examples, if a man remarried after his wife's death he was referred to as the widower of abc in the marriage record and many times his burial record also referred to him as the husband or widower of xyz. By your reasoning wouldn't that mean that he should also have his wife's name as an OLN?

As for the search, if I didn't know the last name at birth of the wife but I did know the husband it is much more simple just to look for the husband and find out that way. Multiple last names would actually increase the number of incorrect suggested matches. If you do a search for Jeanne Petit (her first husband) you get more than 500 matches.

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In European based cultures, the children of a marriage mainly take the father's last name.  Not the mother's.  There are exceptions to this of course, but for this particular culture this is the case.  And I have seen cases where a woman's funeral record omits her name entirely, only listing her as ''widow of so-and-so''.  I have also seen  a case where a woman gets referred to as ''la Brunet''.  Which was not her name but that of her husband.  Legally women were ''subject'' (for lack of a better term) to their husband, in countless notarial acts where both are present, the woman gives her agreement ''duly authorized by her husband to do so''.  The converse is not the case, the only time a husband needs permission from his wife is when the property being sold is part of her contractual dower.

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This is going to be my last response on this matter. At first I wasn't going to bother since it seems clear you are not reading what I am writing. Your responses to me have been monologues with no response to any specific points that I am trying to make.

If you actually have a record that refers to someone as "la Brunet" that is an actual case to put Brunet in as OLN. But you are making the broad assumption that just because there MAY be a record that refers to a woman that way then you should apply it to all women regardless of if it actually exists or not.

I joined WikiTree because I like the way that facts and documentation are stressed here as opposed to Ancestry where most people seem to think that if information is already in somebody else's tree then it must be correct.

If you have proof that a woman used her husband's last name as her own then by all means, list that as an OLN but simply the fact that a woman is called abc, the wife of xyz, does not make xyz her last name. It doesn't matter if it is in a marriage record or a notarial act, xyz would still not be her last name. It is the name of her husband who is used to identify her as an individual from someone else with the same name.

I'll quote you here: "women kept their own names, in various documents...they got listed as wife (or widow) of egh. So it was actually part of the identification process for them".

Identification process does not mean name. It is no different than describing them as tall, thin, "the blacksmith" or the guy who lives down the road. Those are all identifiers as well. I have seen English baptism records for my family that say Joseph Parker, blacksmith but I would never use blacksmith as part of his name.

As I said, this is my last response, so no need to reply. I will still not be removing names from other peoples profiles but I will definitely not be adding them to any that I manage.