Comments on Patrick (Hamilton) Hamilton IVth of Udston

Question

On 13 Jan 2022 Claire C wrote on Hamilton-4470:

Patrick is generally considered the 3rd of Udston as per the peerage link in the bio, and many other sources.

His brother John "of Bruntwood" was never known to be of Udston apart from perhaps "the Younger" for a while before either the estates were divided (Bruntwood for John, Udston for Patrick) or maybe John predeceased his father so the succession reverted to Patrick?  Either way what all sites, and Heraldic Hamilton geneaology  agree on (even with the confusion) is that it was Patrick who was the 3rd & Patrick's grandson John (by his only child "heiress" Elizabeth, who predeceased her father) who became the 4th of Udston.

The only reference to Patrick's brother John (of Bruntwood) also being the 3rd of Udston (making Patrick the alledged 4th) came from a cross link between Wikitree and FamilySearch, i.e one source quoted the other with no other  substantiation :(

Could any of you pre-1500 certified please take a look and check my thinking/comments please

Answer 1

I see your point and although the source I had attached initially seems to contradict your point, I would be happy to look at the sources that considered Patrick to be the 3rd of Udston or that refer to John as "the Younger".  

In the meantime, I have added a RegMagSig entry where he resigns his lands and am keeping an eye out for other sources.

Comments

There might be something in Cokayne's work but I just got a call from a client in Dublin and need to do some paid work.  I will add the reference if it's applicable later today.

---

 "I have added a RegMagSig entry where he resigns his lands "

never even though about that, but of course that could be the other reason Patrick become the 3rd

thanks for you reply Thom

---

I took a look at the Cokayne source noted by ThePeerage and it deals with UDSTON only in relation to BELHAVEN with Patrick shown as father of Elizabeth who married John H. of Neilsland and John H. of Broomhill.  Just to add to the confusion, he refers to Patrick as John on one page (v2, p. 93) but correctly names him as Patrick on another page (v2. p. 95).

I added the reference and some words regarding the discrepancy on Patrick's profile.

---

LOL I knew there was confusion  it starts with Robert the 2nd who is quoted as either Robert or John in some sources (which I think may be the same confusion? only this time father and son.. my head is done in!) 

however what I think I'm saying is that from Patricks grandson John (the 4th) there should be some consistency unless it's absolutely able to proved against other sources? 

---
there is another inconsistency in this line around about 5-7 but we won't go there yet LOL!!

---

Thom, another thing I did wonder about what happened to the Brunton land, however if you're saying that he resigned them to another brother might that not suggest he went to the church? They could not hold titles or lands as far as I know

---

His resignation of the land was long after his father passed away so would not have affected the title order.  That he was without issue and possibly unmarried, could well have played into his alienating the lands to minimize the legal burden for his brother.  We have some Scottish lawyers in WT, so maybe one of those could expand on that.

---

Thanks Thom

I so can't find where I saw the mention of James the Younger, sorry

here's the main sources that I did keep open:
https://archive.org/details/historicalgeneal00ande/page/389/mode/1up

https://archive.org/details/heraldryofhamils00john/page/102/mode/2up

https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/hh4aa/hamilton08.php

https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/hh4aa/hamilton19.php

https://www.stirnet.com/genie/support/zzother/hamiltons.php#sources

and then there's the Peerage, but I've known that to be wrong before, and I think its a derivative?

and yes it was me who changed FamilySearch, though I left the original source attached (Robert the 2nd)  and I think it was maybe you who attached it now that I've checked again, sorry again I should have thought to ask here first .. please feel free to change it back if the team think otherwise 

I know Stirnet may not be an "official source" however I've always found it to very reliable (for clues) due to the notes they always put in, and the author has an interest in the Hamiltons anyway

 

Answer 2

I've left an explanation on the profile as well, but the source stated on the profile -  https://archive.org/details/historicalgeneal00ande/page/389/mode/1up gives Patrick as the second son, and heir to his brother John.

Comments

Thanks Amy, there is some definite confusion between the 3rd's!

I know Patrick was the 2nd son, but I think perhaps John either predeceasd his father (hence the "Younger" but not the succession)   or that their father split his lands of Bruntwood and Udston between his 2 sons at a date later than some records. As in John never actually was "of" Udston but perhaps was at some time a "Younger of"

So Patrick could have either "succeeded his brother" if his brother John died before Dad, or else there was a "land split" between the children, with Brunton going to John (which is how he is known, though had no children) and Udston going to Patrick

---

The source I gave explains the succession fairly well, in my opinion.  Andrew, first of Udston, was succeeded by his son, Robert.  Robert, second of Udston, was succeeded by his eldest son, John.  John, third of Udston died without issue and was succeeded by his brother, Patrick, making Patrick the fourth in succession.  I hope that is a little clearer.  There's no source indicating that Robert's son John (Patrick's brother) predeceased Robert.  The source cited indicates that John resigned the lands of Brunton to his brother, Alexander and that Patrick succeeded John to the lands at Udston.

---

eta: https://electricscotland.com/webclans/htol/hamilton_heraldry.pdf (page 102), this source is simply the pdf of "the Heraldry of the Hamiltons" (which is widely available in other places)  no mention of Patrick "succeeding" his brother just the split of the brothers

suppose it depends on which source you believe hence the confusion, either way I would not presume to renumber the Udstons on Wikitree  based on a single source?

---

Thanks for sharing the link.  I can put a note on the profile about the succession discrepancy and perhaps one of our Project members will be able to dig into it and try to sort it out.  If not, I can look at it after this weekend's Thon

---

Thanks Amy! I'm also n for this weekends Thon

and I'm not trying to be a PITA LOL, there is a definite discrepancy in this generation however it affects the "numbering" down the line.. I have researched many different sites, stirnet included and while they also say there is something amiss aroud this time, it seems poor John was never officially the 3rd, hence me wondering if he predeceased his father :(