Are you aware of the "Wikitree Watchlist FS Matching App" for source refrence linking?

+12 votes
897 views

All,

I'm hesitant to list this for group discussion, but avoiding conflict resolves nothing.  I love the FamilySearch tool for updating profiles.  A little bad with the good, and a few additions I would find helpful, but how do you all feel about this utility?  Maybe you didn't know it existed?

Try this link --->  WikiTree Watchlist FS Matching

Inserted this so you can view what the app did.  Nothing was on the page until I used this tool to attach records I collected on FamilySearch.   Here is an example Profile to look for those of you that have not tried the tool.   I did not format the profile page, the tool in its insertion of sources re-formatted the profile by insertion of the source links and chronological dates or records.  Note it does have links, but the links are as good as notations of sources.  

Franklyn Benjamin Skeels - WikiTree Profile

Try the tool (above) and give one of your profile's a try.  It uses your watchlist as a filter or profiles you have entered or updated.   

What's Good

Profiles without sources, or ones with sources that need to have a few more added, and exist on FamilySearch can easily be linked and updated to WikiTree profiles.  It also re-formats the profile with dates in chronological order and links to FamilySearch ID# and source linkage.

What's Bad.

Well if you don't update FamilySearch, sources are not collected for the matching.  Many profiles on familylsearch need cleaning and merging.  

Or if wrong sources are attached to the proper profile, and not cleaned, bad info will come over to WikiTree.  

I believe in taking a little bad for the greater good.  It's one other opportunity to cleanup profiles so they don't get messed up.  To ignore FamilySearch and the vast sources found there, and believe some other WikiTree'er won't attempt the match linking and do an update might be a little unrealistic.

Click VOTE up if YES like the tool, or Vote UP on No and hate it.  Give reasons you voted why you did if not already added by others... 

Improvements..  Add things you would like added.

This feedback is critical for future improvements to profiles!

WikiTree profile: Kirt Fetterling
in The Tree House by Kirt Fetterling G2G6 Mach 1 (19.3k points)
edited by Kirt Fetterling
Change these to separate answers; that would be better than comments.  Easier to filter good v bad; otherwise, they'll all get jumbled up.
You are too quick Ros.. Hoping I did this well enough to use for tracking..
Kirt, a suggestion which I hope you will appreciate... When editing a G2G post (question, answer or comment), it's very helpful to add a note at the end describing the change. Otherwise people who read it earlier are left wondering what new material they should absorb, or conversely why something might have been deleted.
Thanks Jim,

I dropped him a message and hope he gets a chance to review our g2g comments..

8 Answers

+8 votes
I love it!  And here is why..
by Kirt Fetterling G2G6 Mach 1 (19.3k points)
I'm always searching for sources.  This tool makes it easy for me to update FamilySearch, and just bring all the sources over.  I would like the refresh option to me more beneficial.  FamilySearch has a last updated note, and wondering if this can also be used to flag WikiTree profiles that should or could be refreshed.   I'll add below for a refresh option.
Overall, I think it is beneficial to link to FS.  I do not necessarily like the items imported into the profile, but they are all in one spot, each preceded by FACT, and easily selected and deleted.

There is another tool that makes the link without importing the 'facts' at: https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:EditFamilySearch  This latter tool, however, does not create a link in the FS profile pointing to WT.  One can do that in the Watchlist matching or manually on FS.
I LOVE this app, In prep. to update my Watchlist, I just went through a grueling 80 pages, matching profiles and now the reward.  The task of updating the WikiTree profiles is a breeze. Each profile has a FS link to their profile with sources available for adding to the WT profile.   Much easier than doing an individual search for each person.   

I don't like those Fact lists and don't use that feature, but while doing the matching I did use the option to do a side-by-side compare of the data and updated dates and places, that I was lacking, on a few profiles.   It worked much like WT merge compare page.
I have added 2451 profiles to Wikitree over 10 years and I make mistakes. So going through my Watchlist one by one gives me the opportunity to look at each with "alternative facts" provided by other genealogists. I sometimes swear at what others have done on Familysearch, but that justification makes my profiles better.
+8 votes
I hate it and here is why..
by Kirt Fetterling G2G6 Mach 1 (19.3k points)
I don't hate it (so haven't voted), but I don't use it. I prefer to find sources through record search on FamilySearch and check that they apply to the right person, rather than taking sources from profiles there, particularly in an automated way. In many cases the latter are nonexistent; sometimes they are erroneous.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen this tool does not copy over the individual sources attached to the FamilySearch profile, but instead creates a link to the FamilySearch profile and updates any differences in names or birth/death dates. While this might be nice to have on a WT profile, I don't think it's particularly helpful if the FS tree is the only source listed. What's the point of using WikiTree if we just point people to the tree at FamilySearch? Ideally, WT profiles have a written-out biography with in-line source citations.

The FamilySearch tree also does not have the same protections that WikiTree does, particularly when it comes to merges.

I do find WikiTree X helpful for creating profiles based on info in the Family Search tree (faster than typing) and it also creates a link to the FS tree. But I do prefer to add individual sources once the profile is created.

I would agree with both Jim and Valerie. I don't really use the tool. I don't want to update the data and point to FamilySearch. I want to bring over citations to the sources that are listed on the FS profile.

By the same token, just like everywhere, I want to review each source citations because FS sources aren't always accurate and sometimes get conflated with the wrong people.

Here is an example Profile to look for those of you that have not tried the tool.   I did not format the profile page, the tool in its insertion of sources re-formatted the profile by insertion of the source links and chronological dates or records.  Note it does have links, but the links are as good as notations of sources.  

Franklyn Benjamin Skeels - WikiTree Profile

Try the tool I put in my original posting and give one profile a try.  It uses your watchlist as a filter or profiles you have entered or updated.   

I really hate to hurt the app developer's feelings by saying I hate it, but there are many things I dislike.  First, those bulleted "facts" are unattractive (in my opinion).  I would rather see them incorporated into a narrative, with in-line references.

But mainly, I really dislike how FS attaches every source in which a person is mentioned as if they had equal relevance (Ancestry also presents such ancillary sources as hints, and I don't accept them.  It makes me quite grumpy, when reviewing other Ancestry trees, to see a string of five death certificates, for example, and discover not one of them is for the profile person.)

Here is an example of how I reorganized the FS links for ease of readability (I'm not claiming that the profile is otherwise praiseworthy): Ezekiel Snethen

Edit:  I haven't used the app, and I see from the other comments on this thread that all those FS sources on my example profile (which I adopted; I didn't add the sources) were not brought over by the app.

I dislike the importation of citations. I've seen incorrect citations added to WT without checking for accuracy first. I've seen the importation of citations that are already on the profile. I've seen the same bunch of citations imported 4 times within a few minutes (confirmation that the operator isn't concentrating). Then it generates a DD suggestion for multiple duplicated lines that someone else gets to clean up. And after I have taken the time to write up a neatly presented bio the best reward is someone importing fact this and fact that in the middle of it to uglify it, leaving me to clean up. That one is super helpful when the fact was already in the bio. We discourage using trees as sources due to their inaccuracy, so I do not view linking our profiles to FS tree profiles as beneficial. I also can't think of any benefits to directing traffic away from WT.
I like the way those mentions in other records are reorganised, Julie.
+4 votes
Suggested improvements to be added here
by Kirt Fetterling G2G6 Mach 1 (19.3k points)
I would like to see a refresh option for newly added or revised sources within FamilySearch that could be brought over to WikiTree..  FamilySearch seems to keep the posting record of the last updates..  Perhaps it can be used to flag our list of profiles available to be refreshed instead of hunting for them!

Kirt, I don't know if you realise this, but the FS Matches app was made by one person.  If you want to request improvements to the app or just thank the developer for his time and effort, his WikiTree profile is here.  I assume you can still contact him via the WikiTree message system.

+7 votes
Can you explain what you are talking about?

I have used FS regularly for years and this makes no sense to me.
by M Ross G2G6 Pilot (752k points)

This isn't about FamilySearch itself, but an app that extracts information from there and inserts it on WikiTree profiles. The app is described here:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:FamilySearch_Connections

Thanks Jim

Further information makes me agree with Valerie and Eric, and your comment, this is very little different from using an Ancestry tree as a source, without any idea if the FS tree/ research is correct, each source attached to a FS profile would have to be checked for validity, which does not speed up the process of finding sources.

I often find sources attached to FS profiles that are incorrect and are often quite ludicrous.
I'll take that as a no vote.  Do you ever see profiles here without sources?  Might this tool help others to attach sources here on WikiTree.   You and I both use FamilySearch so we have gathered and sorted thru profile records.   I think if we could educate a few to help "easily" attach FamilySearch sources to our profiles, the tree here would be getting better.  Just a thought..    Absolutely, things on FamilySearch are not perfect, nor is our tree here perfect nor finished.  Ongoing and always improving..

Got you as a NO, and that's okay.

Hmm, there are many unsourced profiles here on WT, there are also significantly more on Ancestry and very many undersourced profiles on FS. Just because a source is attached to a profile does not mean it is correct for the person profiled. 

I am willing to concede that it may be easier to copy a source citation when it is attached to a FS profile but that doesn't mean it is the correct source for the person. 

My problem with this is, " easily attach FamilySearch sources to our profiles, " . If we collectively do not evaluate the sources attached to FS profiles then there is no reason to think that those sources and the information they contain is correct. 

Unsourced profiles are unsourced profiles, encouraging people to accept source records attached to FS or Ancestry or other profiles on other similar websites does not mean that those sources are correct for the profiled persons. 

That is my concern, if we encourage people to accept records as correct only because they are attached to person  XYZ-123 we are not teaching those people to evaluate if those records are correct for the person profiled. 

My problem is not the app, it is whether we are unknowingly unthinkingly teaching/ encouraging people to accept sources with no idea if the record actually belongs to the profiled person. 

My background is applied psychology if I had written a paper with the only sources listed as paper written by Bob Jones without an evaluation of Bob's research and methods and how it applied to the subject under discussion I would never have been considered as a Master's candidate. 

M,

Thank you for your comment, and I do understand.

Since we are taking a 10,000 foot view at sources and proper attachment..  I'd like to ask you what if...

If you lost Wikitree to Ransomware.. Everything were gone..  How quickly could you get all your profiles back and online for sharing again?  Would they be as good as if they never left.  What about those profiles you did not add but latter were attached to your profiles?  Would those be lost?  Where would you find them to get them back up and running again?

My point is not that WikiTree have a mirror for backup, but that we users can quickly fix what is broken.  One bad merge, and your profile is gone!  You would have to re-create it since its needed to re-connect all your ancestors and descendants.  What if you did not have all the sources?  We as collaborators contribute and add sources, but you maybe didn't collect them on your PC?  

I'm just suggesting FamilySearch with their vast database and unique position to share information with all of us in a collaborative way is beneficial.  If a wrong record is attached it can be removed.  If records can be found they can be attached.  If a name is wrong it can be edited.  There is even a Bio section that can be developed and imported.   

I am not suggesting that Ancestry trees are correct.  ThruLines was a fantastic addition and a huge time saver for viewing possibilities not so easily seen without a lot of hard work.  Yes ThruLines is just theory's, and possibilities, not absolute.  But you need to look under stones sometimes to find clues.  You just might find a great piece of treasure that was a brick wall for you for years...  A look into an Ancestry tree, matching DNA, a few records here and there, and we possibly have a continued branch or a new one..  

I also would like to address those who hold record sources back a private, and don't share them.  If profile go off the rails, it may be because good information was withheld leading to an improper merge. Duplicated profiles do not allow DNA to travel up both profiles.  Only one has the proper WikiID# and it would flow up that parental path..   DNA is just as important as finding a good source!  DNA can certainly prove if a person is properly attached to a tree, or needs to be place elsewhere.  I'm only noting sources and DNA should be shared ALWAYS to improve data verification.  I'm not suggesting you have suggested otherwise.

Nothing is absolute, and I'm not suggesting you believe it is...  I'm trying to show you that collaboration here is HUGE, and although not perfect, a novice can become a huge asset with a few good tools and the knowledge to use it properly.  I have never seen a pole here, but my guess is 95% of our users are here for just a tree and are novices..  Some may try to improve and learn, but today the users who have keys to our car are very unskilled and possibly a hazard.  1% are genealogists and dedicated to this is their life!  that leaves 4% that think they are genealogists, but are very dangerous.  I'm in this class,  Not reckless, just time on earth is getting shorter, and I have a few branches that still need connection..  If I hold my cards back, or you do the same, we can't connect.   WikiTree is here for our one world tree.  Good or bad we are all trying to help more than hurt.  What gets broken, hopefully can easily be fixed by a few of us who are correcting FS sources as well as relationships to one another.  I hope you are doing the same.
Re: What would happen if WT disappeared? I would sit down and cry!

But regarding the family history for both sides of the family and other projects it is backed up by a total of 6 people on 3 continents. Everything is also up to date on FTM.

It would be a pain to rebuild the profiles but I do have all the sources, most of the actual records are downloaded, some are actually printed.

I agree collaboration on WT is wonderful, but we can't force people to collaborate more than they want to.
If the WT site was lost, it would be recreated for the most part from back ups. FS is not a back up for WT. There are profiles at WT that do not exist in the FS tree. There are citations on WT profiles that do not exist on FT profiles.
I'm with you Ros...   People seem blocked in the way they refuse to use or try new things.  I'm assuming the No Votes are people who don't like their cheese moved and scream bloody murder if it is touched.    I wish more people would at least try the tool, but seems the majority who commented would rather kill the app before it may be used on some profiles that others have attached to their tree.  #1 Complaint seems that having duplicate lines and sources in a tree is worse than few or no sources on profiles.  We can cleanup duplications on messy profiles.  We have difficulty cleaning profiles (or attaching to them) without good sources and in many cases no exact dates, places or any sources.   I'm really at odds with many here.  The lack of or very few sources is #1 reason this is a priority, not that records are duplicated (that should be #2 formatting).  Have you seen how difficult it is to source and type records quickly?  The FS app does it in a few seconds!

Oh well, Se la vie!  The voting is almost over...

I too have all my stuff backed up just so I'm never going to be without some type of review on a 2nd platform.

C'est la vie and `a chacun son goût.

+9 votes
I neither love nor hate FamilySearch Matches (which, in case anyone hadn't noticed, is in the top menu: Find > FamilySearch Matches).  I think it can be a very useful tool to help find information that you don't yet have.  The problem is that it needs to be used well.  When I started here, I must have added information to thousands of profiles by accepting what was given to me.  (I'm not very smart.)  The app showed information (such as death dates and locations for people on my watchlist), and I clicked 'Update WikiTree' in the app.  This took me to the merge page, where I could easily update the profile with the information from FamilySearch.  It also gave a nice link to the source of the data on FamilySearch.  I think I thought that as this tool was in the menu of WikiTree (kind of integrated into the site), it was the right way to do this (or at least a valid, approved way). I later realised what I'd been doing and regretted it. I now spend a lot of my time fixing my earlier profiles, adding sources for the information which the app gave me. I realised, as others have mentioned here, that so many of the profiles on FamilySearch are themselves unsourced. Also, a link to a FamilySearch profile is not as good as having an actual source citation for the relevant data, partly because it's better if our members can see where the data came from (which census, birth record, etc.), but also because FamilySearch profiles are unstable, with records (relevant and irrelevant) being added and removed regularly.  So... To use FamilySearch Matches well, I think people can/should use it to see what data seems to be on FamilySearch and then go there to find the records that give the information that you're looking for (if the records actually exist on that site, which they often don't) and copy a citation for the record from the site to paste into your profile.
by Ian Beacall G2G6 Pilot (315k points)
Thank you for your comment, and I want you to expand on your regretting on doing the updates and having to go back and fix them.. What did you have to fix?   Also my comments...

Once you select your FS match for update, Yes, it brings you to the WikiTree profile and you have the option to accept or reject the proposed changes to dates / locations /proper names, etc.  CHOICE.  Side by Side review prior to accepting (ALL) or any changes.  

I agree not all on FamilySearch is correct, just as many profiles on WikiTree are not correct.  Like the Ocean Waves, new things wash up on shore, and also then again get dragged out to sea.  It's constantly renewed and ever changing.  Hopefully for the better...Let's face it.  Grave Marker dates can certainly be incorrect, and do conflict with many death and burial records.  Even the names on these records are often misspelt.  If I select one record, and you choose one with a date off by a day, does it really matter?   We are verifying the correct person is attached to the proper family, and a day here or there is not as important.  The date discrepancy can be explained on FamilySearh (and Wikitree) and if corrected on FS, it can then be brought into WikiTree with no other editing required (EVER).

If you also note that during the FS update to WikiTree, you see the proposed changes and the existing info side by side.  there are even dates the manager marked as CERTAIN, and one would at least give second thought to updating before accepting a change.  It would certainly be noted in the bio section as to why you or the person who maintenanced the profile insist the new information is correct and site your source right?

What happened during your updates that made you regret bring in sources or refreshed information.  Were you not completely in control to maintenance and comment on everything prior to a draft save, or final save?
Hi Kirt. I'm sorry if I was not clear.  The result of my using the app was that many of my profiles had a lot of unsourced data, which isn't a good thing.  As I may have mentioned, many FamilySearch profiles are unsourced. I've seen whole families with dates and locations but zero records attached.  Where did these dates and locations come from?  I can assume that someone did some research at some point and everything is hunky-dory, but that would be irresponsible. From what I've read, there is a lot of nonsense on sites such as Ancestry and FamilySearch (I mean the trees, not the records). One of the good things about WikiTree is that people believe that we can build a good tree here, without the mistakes that are found elsewhere. The way to do this is to check the sources as best we can and not blindly copy what people tell us is true, which is what you do when you import data from FamilySearch without checking the sources/records first. So what I had to (have to) fix was (is) the sourcing. I need to find records that back up the facts that I've stated in the profile. Sometimes, I can find them, but sometimes, I can't.  There are lots of people sourcing unsourced profiles on WikiTree who can tell you the same thing.  Sometimes, it turns out that the 'facts' were wrong. Yes, that happens a lot on WikiTree, but I would rather decrease the number of false 'facts' than increase them. It's also to do with trust, reliability, and perception. If people look at a WikiTree profile and they see that each fact on the page is backed up by some kind of citation, they will trust that profile, and by extension, the manager, and even the site, more.  If they see a bunch of 'facts' and only a link to a FamilySearch/Ancestry/whatever profile, they won't judge that profile very favorably. They will see it as essentially unsourced, which is not a good thing.  

Yes, on the merge page, you have the choice to accept or reject the proposed changes.  What I was trying to tell you is that, as a beginner, I trusted what I was being given by FamilySearch, data which was being given to me via an app which was built into WikiTree. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not very smart... but I am able to learn, and I think I have learnt a few things in the last few years. I now see that I shouldn't have put blind faith in the data that was given, and that other researchers would like to know what records the data came from, which the citation for the FamilySearch profile doesn't give them. You can blame me for not knowing enough to check all of the records on FamilySearch (or if there were any) before importing the data, but, as I said, the app is integrated into the top menu of WikiTree with no explanation, so I trusted it. I think I'm not the only one, and I fear that you're trusting it too much now and encouraging others to do likewise.

I'm not talking about dates being a day or two out or a name having a slightly different spelling, by the way. These things are part of reading records - sometimes many different records - and trying to find what may be the truth. The ocean waves don't enter into it.  

You mention dates that a manager marks as 'certain'.  I wasn't really thinking of that. When I used the app, I was looking for data that I didn't have, not really looking to change what I had.  So if I had birth details, I was looking for death details.

FamilySearch Matches is a useful tool, but I wish I had known more about what I was doing and not just trusted everything I saw when I was using it. I think the danger is that there are many others like me who may not realise what they're doing and WikiTree will end up with a bunch more essentially unsourced profiles.

I hope that helps.
Ian said exactly what I was going to post.  When I have seen the Facts, as seen in the example profile, they are frequently a repeat of other statements in the biography, so they are a duplicate.  Fact alone is not a source, it is a statement.  The only source that was added in that example was the link to the Family Search Profile.  If the Facts were added with the related sources, then that would be worthwhile, as long as they were not duplicates of already existing sources, but without the related source, the Facts are nothing more than a hint.

Whenever I see these 'facts' on a profile, I will check the FS profile, if it is still linked and add the sources to the profile and change the 'Fact' to a statement with the inline citation.  A 'Fact' seems to indicate that there is a Reliable source to prove that it is a 'Fact' and that is not accurate.
I admit for viewing purposes, I did not clean the bio after importing FS sources.  I wanted all to see that it is easily imported in a nice format that allows one to click on links to view sources.  It's not like sources linked to Ancestry where the links are broken and there is nothing to look at.   

I can easily go thru the bio section and clean things up!

I'm gathering you also don't care for the tool and find it does more harm than good.   

I'll give it another day or two, but it looks like those of us who are active on WikiTeee don't use this tool.
I have to agree with Ian. If the app made the sources available instead of just the profile, at least it would be possible to see if there were sources, and evaluate them without having to navigate back and forth to the FS profile to check things out and create reasonable citations. With new apps like sourcer, it’s a snap to find and create a great citation.

I’m no great wikiTree guru, but I would only link to an external tree as a source as a stopgap measur until I had time to add resources on WT, and only then if the external source was in my own control, and had sources I had already verified myself. It is sometimes helpful to see that the same source on FS has been linked to the same person there, and if so look at other sources given there, but no, I don’t like the idea either. I’m just getting educated enough to understand how important good documentation records are, and when I was still a total newbie, I wouldn’t have even noticed the problems. I’ve seen some really nicely sourced FS profiles, and I’ve seen some so obviously incorrect ones (like my 3gg grandfather, who has two sets of parents, and no sources), that I shudder at some poor misguided newbie making embarrassing and discouraging mistakes. Had I known about this app as a newbie, I would probably done just that, and I did enough embarrassing things like that  without this app.!

At this point, I might find it useful to use occasionally to be sure someone else hasn’t found some source I missed, but I shure wouldn’t advise someone new to use it without a long serious talk about how to use it.
Kirt, the problem with using an FS profile is that sources can be easily removed, just like with wikitree, but with wikitree you can easily see the Changes Log to verify what was there before and after. That isn't as easy to do with FS.

I use FS profiles more lately because some do have sources and I will add sources to the profiles, but adding a Fact and a link to FS profile is not adding sources to wikitree. I wish it would add the source that is associated with each fact, then it would be more useful.
It's also important to keep in mind that the created citations should be edited so that they are referencing the actual record via the Evidence Explained format, in such a way that the record can be located again if the link becomes dead. https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/citing-familysearch-images
+4 votes
I found it easy to use.  Also, the ability to select which data to use makes it simple to decide what to use for a match.
by Maureen Randall G2G6 (6.2k points)
+5 votes

I used to use it before I found out about View and Edit FamilySearch Connections

Now I use that one to link the profiles directly from within the profile. My GreaseMonkey script adds a huge ugly link to it to the profiles, so I don't forget to link it with FamilySearch.

by Florian Straub G2G6 Pilot (201k points)
+1 vote
I've been trying to post a question about this features recent "move" within the last 34 hours and why I can't use it anymore. I agree with the op regarding using discernment and updating FS to "get the good" and "separate out the bad" so this isn't an argument either way- but being unable to copy and paste in G2G as a smartphone user and so many other growing limitations - J found this post and thought someone may be able to help. On the other hand there may be 15 copies of the same question to appear in G2G at some point because it wouldn't allow me to post the inquiry yet wouldn't state why when the page refreshed and put me back at the top of the "new post" to fix something using my psychic powers of intuition which haven't updated with me yet :)

   Thanks! Becky Elizabeth / WikiTree ID: Simmons-11603
by Becky Simmons G2G6 Mach 2 (27.8k points)

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