Would you like to set up your DNA Group Projects on WikiTree?

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Would you like to set up your DNA Group Projects on WikiTree?

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A DNA Group Project is kind of like a DNA Surname Study, though these projects are not limited by surnames only. Some Group DNA projects are set up to explore a specific family group - say, the Templetons who settled near Charlotte, NC or all Templetons with all surname derivations. DNA Projects can also be about a place, like the North of Ireland DNA Project.

Many of us WikiTreers are DNA Group project administrators, myself included. I watched the impacts of tighter privacy controls on one site we administrators used to explore relationship trails or pedigrees to accompany the data in our projects. The main site available for that shut down in 2017.

No site has replaced it, other than project administrators who had the ability to host this information on their own.

WikiTree can step in to fill this need. We have Free Space pages galore that can be used, along with existing DNA features and categorization to not only be able to host this information but to add WikiTree "super powers" to the work.

Yes, FTDNA is aware that we are working on providing this ability for DNA Project Administrators and look forward to seeing the work in action.

Are you a DNA Group Project Administrator who would like to set up your Group Projects on WikiTree? Would you like to join in to help identify how to work this project as part of the DNA innovators team?

Greg Clarke and I have worked to make some of the transferring of data and information to WikiTree automated. :-) And there are a few DNA Project pages set up currently so you can see what we have in mind.

Are your interested in helping with this? Would you like to set up your own?

WikiTree DNA Group Projects

WikiTree profile: Space:Templeton_DNA_Group_Project

asked Jan 12, 2021 in Requests for Project Volunteers by Mags Gaulden G2G6 Pilot (650k points)
edited Jan 19, 2021 by Mags Gaulden

Jim: I believe that the concept here to to help provide features and tools at WikiTree to support DNA projects, those that have existing projects at FTDNA, those with group projects at GEDmatch, or other efforts. As Megs stated, another free resource used to be available for folks managing DNA projects, but it went away. WikiTree could fill that void, and also provide features not previously or presently available.

If you are so inclined, you can set up an account and transfer your raw autosomal DNA results to FTDNA; there's no need to take a test through them to check their database for matches. You can do likewise with MyHeritage. Each allows you to upload data and search for matches for free, but both also have features like chromosome browsers and ethnicity estimates for which they charge nominal one-time fees.

I'm very interested in seeing the direction this effort goes, lending it what support I can, and perhaps having some small influence on its direction.

Best regards,

William

commented Jan 20, 2021 by William Watson G2G1 (1.9k points)

Scott,

You've got the gist of it. Over ten thousand DNA projects exist at FamilyTreeDNA.com, most with Y-DNA kits, and many with autosomal DNA. The results from Y-DNA tests can show family connections going back hundreds of years, but only on the all-male line. In contrast, autosomal DNA tests (Ancestry, 23andMe, LivingDNA, MyHeritage, etc.) can only turn up connections in the past maybe 5 generations or so, but can find connections on all of your ancestral lines.

FTDNA provides a few resources for surname projects, but quite a few used to depend on some sites that shut down after the arrival of the European General Data Protection Requirements (GDPR), and many now only have skimpy sites at FTDNA. The idea here is that WikiTree could fill the need, providing a home for additional information that doesn't fit at FTDNA, also allow folks who have tested through other companies to connect, and provide some additional features.

It's still "early days" for support of surname DNA projects at WikiTree. If you're not the admin of a surname project at FTDNA, you could possibly start organizing one here at WikiTree, but otherwise you definitely could make sure that your tree here is correct, and add information to indicate the DNA tests you have taken.

FYI: Here's the Horn/Horne project at FTDNA:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/horn/about

Two more notes: You can download your raw DNA from many of the existng companies (Ancestry, 23andMe, MyHeritage, LivingDNA, etc) upload them to FamilyTreeDNA.com, join one or more projects, and look for matches, all for free. If you wish to get FTDNA's estimate of your ethnicity, or use their chromosome browser to review matches in detail, you'll have to pay a modest one-time fee ($19?). You'll find similar deals at MyHeritage.com, LivingDNA.com, GEDmatch,com, Geneanet.org, and a few other sites. Each has their own privacy policy and listing of terms and conditions.

commented Jan 21, 2021 by William Watson G2G1 (1.9k points)

This is unfortunately very wrong:

"In contrast, autosomal DNA tests (Ancestry, 23andMe, LivingDNA, MyHeritage, etc.) can only turn up connections in the past maybe 5 generations or so, but can find connections on all of your ancestral lines."

Autosomal DNA isn't just all of a sudden appearing out of thin air beyond 5 generations (which you comment would assume). It's inherited like the rest of our DNA from our parents and their parents and so on.

What people mix up is setting a threshold of centiMorgans to focus on a certain number of generations only. But if you go down to 1 centiMorgan you automatically go back to 2200 BCE.

Because you and others don't believe this I refer you to Prof Itsik Pe'er from the Columbia University and his 2017 paper: identity-by-descent in medical and population genomics

As per Prof. Itsik Pe'er 7 centiMorgan (used by many DNA testing companies as a threshold) will bring you results up to 1500 CE, so 500 years.

Hopefully this misconception about 5 generation can be put to rest now.

commented Jan 21, 2021 by Andreas West G2G6 Mach 7 (76.6k points)

I don't think that autosomal DNA surname groups make sense.

After all, the DNA that you and other people of the same surname have inherited might be from someone else than your all male line. You can have a common ancestor that followed your male line for a couple of generations and then maybe at the 4th or 5th generation it turns out that the mother (with a different) surname was the MRCA through which the autosomal DNA passed down.

So in this sense (of having surname groups) only Y-DNA makes sense. Mitochondrial DNA changes the surname every generation (usually, unless mother and daughter are both name Smith or something common).

So if you want to identify the common ancestor (as Mags wrote "A DNA Group Project is kind of like a DNA Surname Study, though these projects are not limited by surnames only." you can do this as well.

Though I'd suggest you rather use the "Your DNA family" app that automatically provides you with a "DNA project group" for each of the 200-300 triangulated groups you find automatically (with a single click).

Disclaimer: I'm the author of the "Your DNA family" app and having such DNA project groups for each of my TG's was one of the reasons why I wrote my own app.

commented Jan 21, 2021 by Andreas West G2G6 Mach 7 (76.6k points)

Marty: My understanding is that the effort here is to provide tools to make creation, management, and support of DNA group projects easier at WikiTree. The projects themselves will require folks to step up and actually create and manage the projects. Some may be admins of existing projects at FTDNA, others might be started by folks who manage surname projects at GEDmatch, while others could be entirely independent of both, and use WikiTree as a foundation of their efforts.

Andreas: The limitations of genetic genealogy using autosomal DNA are a bit off-topic in a discussion of tools to support DNA projects. Perhaps I should have left out my comment. No single comment, video, or paper will end the discussion, and it's a distraction from the topic of "what tools could WikiTree add to make support of Genetic Genealogy projects easier?"
I had not seen the video by Itsik Pe'er before, and am streaming it now. As you noted, it concerns population genomics, not genetic genealogy, so conclusions it presents don't close the debate about what regular consumers working on genealogy can achieve with the results of commercial direct-to-consumer tests.

commented Jan 21, 2021 by William Watson G2G1 (1.9k points)

Andreas: Thank you for providing a link to your app. I'd failed to stumble across it. I heartily agree with the sentiment you express in the FAQ there: "I want to leave the boring, repetitive work to computers and instead focus my time on working with my DNA cousins to identify our common ancestors."

As far as my efforts as an admin of two surname projects, I see two main uses for autosomal test results and matching, within the project:

1) Allow females and folks with female ancestors to confirm connections to men with surname connections confirmed with Y-DNA results, and

2) Identification of correct recent connections, where Y-DNA results have to date only confirmed shared connection to a distant ancestor.

Again, though, the primary discussion here is "What tools can WikiTree provide that will assist in creating, and managing DNA group projects?" and is not restrictive in the types of projects WikiTreers set up and run.

commented Jan 21, 2021 by William Watson G2G1 (1.9k points)

13 Answers

Answer 1 · 2021-01-12T22:52:43+0000

Hi Mags!
I'm very interested!
We have the Peasley ONS (also a Paisley ONS) on WT with the following projects on FTDNA:

Paisley Y-DNA and atDNA managed by Diane Langston
Paisley & allied families - autosomal managed by Diane Langston

Answer 2 · 2021-01-13T01:56:22+0000

Hello Mags and Greg

Count me in! I am an admin on 4 FTDNA Projects 3 of which already have pages here at Wikitree. I have been adding Patriarchs and Matriarchs and encouraging members to connect their lines up on Wikitree. The 3 are at different stages of development.

* Brittons of Ireland - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Brittons_of_Ireland_-_DNA_Project

* Coat Surname - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Coat_Name_Study

* Cassidy - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Cassidy_Name_Study

Plus - on the 'to do' list

* County Wexford -https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:County_Wexford

* Australian Convicts - I would love to resurrect getting a connection to this project - I'm not an admin at FTDNA but some work was started ages ago on Wikitree that needs revitalising! https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Australian_Convicts_FTDNA_Project

* Australian Free Settlers - ditto! https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Australian_Settlers_FTDNA_Project

Would love to see whats planned and maybe get started with some of these!

Veronica

Answer 3 · 2021-01-13T04:29:52+0000

I am in the process of setting up the Ellis project on Wikitree. I would love to be involved. Thank you for the opportunity. Great to look at your pagr and get idea.

Answer 4 · 2021-01-14T12:42:27+0000

Hi Mags

I'd be keen to participate in the Zoom call. I've got my location-based Ballycarry project on Wikitree

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Ballycarry_DNA_Group_Project

I'd love to discuss with others the best way to approach autosomal DNA based projects on Wikitree.

Answer 5 · 2021-01-16T13:28:56+0000

Hi Mags,

I already have several of my FTDNA surname projects with fledgling pages here on WikiTree linked to DNA and One Name Studes for the surnames and encourage members to document their trees here.

When time permits I check for the assorted patriarchs that are DNA tested and start of at least the earliest generation (very slow progress though!) linking to patriarch categories, DNA representative wanted etc

Dawe, Fairbairn, Runcinan, Sinton, Wight being the main ones

Answer 6 · 2021-01-18T17:54:08+0000

Hello Mags!

I'm interested in the possibilities of supporting WikiTree with an existing surname project at FTDNA. The DNA project has over 200 Y-DNA kits, the earliest from 2003 and enough Big Y results to start seeing SNPs we can use within the genealogical era. It's an adjunct to a stand-alone project genealogical database running TNG, with documents, images, and transcriptions, and a total of over 60000 individual profiles.

My main question is "how could the surname DNA project support WikiTree?" I came here to G2G after seeing a comment on William Hatcher [[Hatcher-36]] about connections being removed AGAIN after having been disproven by Y-DNA results in 2015. Another example is James Hatcher [[Hatcher-572]], shown as a descendant of Jameston Hatcher [[Hatcher-419]], though Y-DNA results disprove that connection. These three men have very distinct Y-DNA results, clearly known to the Hatcher project admins years ago, but invalid connections still turn up here on WikiTree.

The rules here at WikiTree seem to prohibit setting up a surname project here unless WT is used as the sole genealogical database, and that's not going to happen with our separate non-profit and database. It also appears that the mechanism here is for individuals to take the initiative and note their DNA results, rather than a surname DNA project admin to note results somehow. I don't see any simple way to leverage project-level DNA results for the benefit of WikiTree.

Also, as you might guess, I have my hands full already with the surname project and the genealogical database. I also have my own DNA results, where I seem to be the lead for Y-DNA results on all descendants of Watson-1338.

The Hatcher genealogical database is at

https://hatcherfamilyassn.com/index.php

and I have my analysis of Y-DNA results at

https://hatcherfamilyassn.com/index.php

Both are works-in-progress, of course.

Best regards, William

answered Jan 18, 2021 by William Watson G2G1 (1.9k points)

Hey William,

To answer your first comment. Yes, there can be changes done to profiles to re-connect or connect recently disproven information that has been previously supported with genealogical evidence. Note I said recent. Anything in the last 50 years could be considered recent, but I am speaking to more recent discoveries on family research.

Most people, in general, may not be "up" on the latest for a line, especially the latest DNA research. What project do these often misconnected profiles possibly fit into for project protection? If there is reach out to the project and request project protection.

There are other things you can do on the profile to try and educate anyone who sees's it, but it doesn't guarantee that people will actually take the time to "read" the profile. Sounds like you are very aware of that and the patience needed to keep the profile Healthy. I suggest you post a separate G2G question about this issue and tag the profiles so the question appears on the profile.

As to DNA Group Projects? We should talk. :-) There is a zoom meeting in the morning at 10AM EST if you'd like to join in.

Mags

commented Jan 18, 2021 by Mags Gaulden G2G6 Pilot (650k points)

Mags,

Thank you for the very prompt response!

I'll be happy to talk, but I'm a night owl in Oregon, and a 7 am PST Zoom won't work well for me. Ah, I see that you sent me an invite for the morning. If I'm awake and coherent, I'll try to join you. I added it to my calendar.

I'm not familiar with "project protection" at WikiTree, so found your second paragraph a little tough to parse. The biggest Hatcher family is William Hatcher [[Hatcher-46]] and his descendants. His profile looks like it's been tagged appropriately with the US_Southern_Colonies project. He's an ancestor of Jameston Hatcher [[Hatcher-419]], but not of the other two men. I'm not clear how one could keep folks from linking profiles to his descendants.

I do understand about the trade-off between the advantage of energy and enthusiasm fueling lots of additions and links, and the possibility that not all are carefully researched and supported. That's the "joy" of a crowd-sourced project, in contrast to that of a curated project where there's always a backlog of work and not enough admin time. :-/

In the mean time, as you suggest, notes on profiles would seem one definitive step, with no guarantees of effectiveness. I'll see if I can figure out an appropriate way to ask a G2G question and to tag a profile with it.

I'll look forward talking some time, possibly in the morning.

William

P. S. It looks like I bobbled one of the links in my earlier response. My Y-DNA analysis is here:

https://hatcherfamilyassn.com/DNA-test-table-public.html

commented Jan 18, 2021 by William Watson G2G1 (1.9k points)

Answer 7 · 2023-10-16T02:45:07+0000

I just learned about this project. And I am so happy that it exists!

But let me say that although there is no explicit language to say so, the tone and the links suggest that the project focuses on Y-DNA and mtDNA. And in my opinion, WikiTree should be taking its place as the leader in auDNA groups, and there is potentially a missed opportunity here?

Blaine Bettinger recently gave a talk “The Future of Genetic Genealogy,” and he talked about the potential for an “Ancestor Segment Database.” I have long thought that Wikitree was *the* site to make this happen, and let me be candid: my first instinct when I saw Blaine’s post was anger, since it sounds like someone is trying to put this together elsewhere. Such a database cannot have any utility unless combined with tree info through genealogical research, so WikiTree with its huge existing genealogical database combined with DNA functionality is the perfect place for this to happen.

I recently posted a question that really needs an auDNA project to progress:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1649157/taylor-families-early-1800s-sw-ohio

And frankly, a project at GEDmatch won’t cut it, because not enough people will upload DNA. But they will join WikiTree! The ease of entry, lack of requirement to include raw DNA data, and focus on good sourcing and documentary analysis should make WikiTree preeminent in this up-and-coming area.

There are so many things like the little project I mentioned above. If it hasn’t happened already, people will be finding and wanting to publish info about little segments they believed belonged to Jamestown Colonists, Mayflower Passengers, or more likely their grandchildren. It is often said that auDNA isn’t useful back that far, but that’s only because it is only rarely useful at that distance and it is hard to distinguish those few cases where it is from the chaff. That’s exactly what medium- or large-sized projects can provide.

I hope WikiTree can be proactive to become the go-to “Ancestor Segment Database.”

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