Would you like to set up your DNA Group Projects on WikiTree?

Question

A DNA Group Project is kind of like a DNA Surname Study, though these projects are not limited by surnames only. Some Group DNA projects are set up to explore a specific family group - say, the Templetons who settled near Charlotte, NC or all Templetons with all surname derivations. DNA Projects can also be about a place, like the North of Ireland DNA Project.

Many of us WikiTreers are DNA Group project administrators, myself included. I watched the impacts of tighter privacy controls on one site we administrators used to explore relationship trails or pedigrees to accompany the data in our projects. The main site available for that shut down in 2017.

No site has replaced it, other than project administrators who had the ability to host this information on their own.

WikiTree can step in to fill this need. We have Free Space pages galore that can be used, along with existing DNA features and categorization to not only be able to host this information but to add WikiTree "super powers" to the work.

Yes, FTDNA is aware that we are working on providing this ability for DNA Project Administrators and look forward to seeing the work in action.

Are you a DNA Group Project Administrator who would like to set up your Group Projects on WikiTree? Would you like to join in to help identify how to work this project as part of the DNA innovators team?

Greg Clarke and I have worked to make some of the transferring of data and information to WikiTree automated. :-)  And there are a few DNA Project pages set up currently so you can see what we have in mind.

Are your interested in helping with this? Would you like to set up your own?

WikiTree DNA Group Projects

Comments

This is unfortunately very wrong:

"In contrast, autosomal DNA tests (Ancestry, 23andMe, LivingDNA, MyHeritage, etc.) can only turn up connections in the past maybe 5 generations or so, but can find connections on all of your ancestral lines."

Autosomal DNA isn't just all of a sudden appearing out of thin air beyond 5 generations (which you comment would assume). It's inherited like the rest of our DNA from our parents and their parents and so on.

What people mix up is setting a threshold of centiMorgans to focus on a certain number of generations only. But if you go down to 1 centiMorgan you automatically go back to 2200 BCE.

Because you and others don't believe this I refer you to Prof Itsik Pe'er from the Columbia University and his 2017 paper: identity-by-descent in medical and population genomics

As per Prof. Itsik Pe'er 7 centiMorgan (used by many DNA testing companies as a threshold) will bring you results up to 1500 CE, so 500 years.

Hopefully this misconception about 5 generation can be put to rest now.

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Thanks everyone for setting this up. So, if I understand this autosomal DNA projects are inbounds also, though the Y-DNA projects are the gold standard of sorts. I'd be interested in some autosomal DNA Surname groups,but will probably defer for now as I am behind in other genealogy and history society commitments.Hopefully, sometime this year.

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I don't think that autosomal DNA surname groups make sense.

After all, the DNA that you and other people of the same surname have inherited might be from someone else than your all male line. You can have a common ancestor that followed your male line for a couple of generations and then maybe at the 4th or 5th generation it turns out that the mother (with a different) surname was the MRCA through which the autosomal DNA passed down.

So in this sense (of having surname groups) only Y-DNA makes sense. Mitochondrial DNA changes the surname every generation (usually, unless mother and daughter are both name Smith or something common).

So if you want to identify the common ancestor (as Mags wrote "A DNA Group Project is kind of like a DNA Surname Study, though these projects are not limited by surnames only." you can do this as well.

Though I'd suggest you rather use the "Your DNA family" app that automatically provides you with a "DNA project group" for each of the 200-300 triangulated groups you find automatically (with a single click).

Disclaimer: I'm the author of the "Your DNA family" app and having such DNA project groups for each of my TG's was one of the reasons why I wrote my own app.

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Marty: My understanding is that the effort here is to provide tools to make creation, management, and support of DNA group projects easier at WikiTree. The projects themselves will require folks to step up and actually create and manage the projects. Some may be admins of existing projects at FTDNA, others might be started by folks who manage surname projects at GEDmatch, while others could be entirely independent of both, and use WikiTree as a foundation of their efforts.

Andreas: The limitations of genetic genealogy using autosomal DNA are a bit off-topic in a discussion of tools to support DNA projects. Perhaps I should have left out my comment. No single comment, video, or paper will end the discussion, and it's a distraction from the topic of "what tools could WikiTree add to make support of Genetic Genealogy projects easier?"
I had not seen the video by Itsik Pe'er before, and am streaming it now. As you noted, it concerns population genomics, not genetic genealogy, so conclusions it presents don't close the debate about what regular consumers working on genealogy can achieve with the results of commercial direct-to-consumer tests.

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Good to read you're watching it, hope others do as well. It's good general stuff to learn.

As for your last sentence, we have numerous customer on our app that have MRCA's beyond 5 generation (which is actually not a big achievement at all), all using autosomal DNA.

But yeah, we're going OT so will leave it with this comment.

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Andreas: Thank you for providing a link to your app. I'd failed to stumble across it. I heartily agree with the sentiment you express in the FAQ there: "I want to leave the boring, repetitive work to computers and instead focus my time on working with my DNA cousins to identify our common ancestors."

As far as my efforts as an admin of two surname projects, I see two main uses for autosomal test results and matching, within the project:

1) Allow females and folks with female ancestors to confirm connections to men with surname connections confirmed with Y-DNA results, and

2) Identification of correct recent connections, where Y-DNA results have to date only confirmed shared connection to a distant ancestor.

Again, though, the primary discussion here is "What tools can WikiTree provide that will assist in creating, and managing DNA group projects?" and is not restrictive in the types of projects WikiTreers set up and run.

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Yes William, using autosomal DNA on top (!) of Y-DNA makes a lot of sense for let's say the first 12 generations.

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There are quite a few DNA Group Projects that focus solely on auDNA. The auDNA projects are great for working Place Studies. The North of Ireland DNA project is auDNA based and includes thousands of members.

So yes, DNA Group Projects can include work with YDNA, mtDNA, auDNA and XDNA. They can be from wherever the project data exists. FTDNA Started the Group Project concept and we have been working to make it easy for FTDNA Group Project Admins to use WikiTree Freespace Profiles to house the EXTRA important companion data to the actual results. Like Pedigrees and tables and...

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Mags and others,

Thanks.

When I find some time I may do something that combines autosomal and Y (not my Y - unless I decide to go introduce myself to my genetic father which is a totally separate conversation). I had thought the DNA surname projects were the domain of Y-DNA crowd until Ann Guthrie of the Guthrie DNA project reached out to me about my distant Guthrie connection, They utilize both: Y and au DNA. They have a website for their group: https://guthrie-genealogy.com/

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Nice Marty! Thanks very much for sharing that with us.

Answer 1

Hello Mags,

I would like test things out with my Sasser Surname DNA Project

https://web.archive.org/web/20151001004458/http://home.comcast.net/~libpjr1/sasserdna.html#Results

In 2017 I made an initial attempt/test https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Sasser_Surname_DNA_Project

Regards, Peter

Comments

Great Peter!

We can do a one on one to get you rolling anytime  - not today as I start teaching a three-week webinar/Workshop on WikiTree and DNA for a group in Sweden at 1:00PM!

Tomorrow! We can do a group Zoom meeting.

Answer 2

Hi Mags!
I'm very interested! 
We have the Peasley ONS (also a Paisley ONS) on WT with the following projects on FTDNA:

• Paisley Y-DNA and atDNA managed by Diane Langston
• Paisley & allied families - autosomal managed by Diane Langston

Comments

Yay Azure!

We can do a group meeting on Zoom Tomorrow?

Mags

Answer 3

Hello Mags and Greg

Count me in!  I am an admin on 4 FTDNA Projects 3 of which already have pages here at Wikitree.  I have been adding Patriarchs and Matriarchs and encouraging members to connect their lines up on Wikitree.  The 3 are at different stages of development.

* Brittons of Ireland - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Brittons_of_Ireland_-_DNA_Project

* Coat Surname - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Coat_Name_Study

* Cassidy - https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Cassidy_Name_Study

Plus - on the 'to do' list

* County Wexford -https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:County_Wexford

* Australian Convicts - I would love to resurrect getting a connection to this project - I'm not an admin at FTDNA but some work was started ages ago on Wikitree that needs revitalising!  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Australian_Convicts_FTDNA_Project

* Australian Free Settlers - ditto! https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Australian_Settlers_FTDNA_Project

Would love to see whats planned and maybe get started with some of these!

Veronica

Comments

Hey Veronica - I knew you would be! thanks!

I am working on doing a Zoom meeting for tomorrow for us all.

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County Wexford ?? REALLY !  That is my Irish brick wall location - first Douglas to emigrate to Canada was apparently William Douglas, born in Templeshanbo in County Wexford ... though ... I haven't been able to verify that paper trail!   

Will this project help me out ?

 - Greg

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It's a location project (and Wexford is a big one!) so not as easy to find connections. I'm currently developing a townland table with links to Wikitree, which I hope might help. It's worth joining and using the Advanced Matching tool to see if you have matches already in the project.

Answer 4

I am in the process of setting up the Ellis project on Wikitree. I would love to be involved. Thank you for the opportunity. Great to look at your pagr and get idea.

Comments

Great! Group meeting tomorrow - sending PM's in a few.

Answer 5

I am very interested in this for the 12 defined/documented unique Y-DNA groups within the Rowland surname project.

Comments

Gotcha Ron! check your email.

Answer 6

Hi Mags!  Yes!  I've created a space page for the Athey Y-DNA surname project.  Is there a trick to importing data from the FTDNA site or is it just cut and paste?

Comments

Hey Darlene,

Yes there is - on the Groups Project Page:https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Space:DNA_Group_Projects&public=1#Step_by_Step_Guide

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I guess I did something wrong.  I tried that but only got a header.  I'll try to figure it out; I know you're busy . . .

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Only on the day when you want to roll something out that one of the cogs gets out of whack. I'll post here when the app is back in good nick. Won't be but as long as it takes to get the escape chipmunks rounded-up and back on the wheel.

Answer 7

Hi Mags

I'd be keen to participate in the Zoom call. I've got my location-based Ballycarry project on Wikitree

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Ballycarry_DNA_Group_Project

I'd love to discuss with others the best way to approach autosomal DNA based projects on Wikitree.

Answer 8

Hi Mags,

I already have several of my FTDNA surname projects with fledgling pages here on WikiTree  linked to DNA and One Name Studes for the surnames and encourage members to document their trees here.

When time permits I check for the assorted patriarchs that are DNA tested and  start of at least the earliest generation (very slow progress though!) linking to patriarch categories, DNA representative wanted etc

Dawe, Fairbairn, Runcinan, Sinton, Wight being the main ones

Comments

Hey Lorna -

We have a zoom meeting in the morning at 10:00AM EST if you'd like to join. If that is a bad time let me know when you can meet and I will meet with you one on one!

Mags

Answer 9

Hello Mags!

I'm interested in the possibilities of supporting WikiTree with an existing surname project at FTDNA. The DNA project has over 200 Y-DNA kits, the earliest from 2003 and enough Big Y results to start seeing SNPs we can use within the genealogical era. It's an adjunct to a stand-alone project genealogical database running TNG, with documents, images, and transcriptions, and a total of over 60000 individual profiles.

My main question is "how could the surname DNA project support WikiTree?" I came here to G2G after seeing a comment on William Hatcher [[Hatcher-36]] about connections being removed AGAIN after having been disproven by Y-DNA results in 2015. Another example is James Hatcher [[Hatcher-572]], shown as a descendant of Jameston Hatcher [[Hatcher-419]], though Y-DNA results disprove that connection. These three men have very distinct Y-DNA results, clearly known to the Hatcher project admins years ago, but invalid connections still turn up here on WikiTree.

The rules here at WikiTree seem to prohibit setting up a surname project here unless WT is used as the sole genealogical database, and that's not going to happen with our separate non-profit and database. It also appears that the mechanism here is for individuals to take the initiative and note their DNA results, rather than a surname DNA project admin to note results somehow. I don't see any simple way to leverage project-level DNA results for the benefit of WikiTree.

Also, as you might guess, I have my hands full already with the surname project and the genealogical database. I also have my own DNA results, where I seem to be the lead for Y-DNA results on all descendants of Watson-1338.

The Hatcher genealogical database is at

https://hatcherfamilyassn.com/index.php

and I have my analysis of Y-DNA results at

https://hatcherfamilyassn.com/index.php

Both are works-in-progress, of course.

Best regards, William

Comments

Hey William,

To answer your first comment. Yes, there can be changes done to profiles to re-connect or connect recently disproven information that has been previously supported with genealogical evidence. Note I said recent. Anything in the last 50 years could be considered recent, but I am speaking to more recent discoveries on family research.

Most people, in general, may not be "up" on the latest for a line, especially the latest DNA research. What project do these often misconnected profiles possibly fit into for project protection? If there is reach out to the project and request project protection.

There are other things you can do on the profile to try and educate anyone who sees's it, but it doesn't guarantee that people will actually take the time to "read" the profile. Sounds like you are very aware of that and the patience needed to keep the profile Healthy. I suggest you post a separate G2G question about this issue and tag the profiles so the question appears on the profile.

As to DNA Group Projects? We should talk. :-) There is a zoom meeting in the morning at 10AM EST if you'd like to join in.

Mags

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Mags,

Thank you for the very prompt response!

I'll be happy to talk, but I'm a night owl in Oregon, and a 7 am PST Zoom won't work well for me. Ah, I see that you sent me an invite for the morning. If I'm awake and coherent, I'll try to join you. I added it to my calendar.

I'm not familiar with "project protection" at WikiTree, so found your second paragraph a little tough to parse. The biggest Hatcher family is William Hatcher [[Hatcher-46]] and his descendants. His profile looks like it's been tagged appropriately with the US_Southern_Colonies project. He's an ancestor of Jameston Hatcher [[Hatcher-419]], but not of the other two men. I'm not clear how one could keep folks from linking profiles to his descendants.

I do understand about the trade-off between the advantage of energy and enthusiasm fueling lots of additions and links, and the possibility that not all are carefully researched and supported. That's the "joy" of a crowd-sourced project, in contrast to that of a curated project where there's always a backlog of work and not enough admin time. :-/

In the mean time, as you suggest, notes on profiles would seem one definitive step, with no guarantees of effectiveness. I'll see if I can figure out an appropriate way to ask a G2G question and to tag a profile with it.

I'll look forward talking some time, possibly in the morning.

William

P. S. It looks like I bobbled one of the links in my earlier response. My Y-DNA analysis is here:

https://hatcherfamilyassn.com/DNA-test-table-public.html

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Gotcha on the time - well, by the wonders of the modern world I can meet with you later. :-) Say Thursday afternoon before 5:00 EST? Tell me when and I'll send you a link.

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Thursday afternoon could work. My schedule is open. Pick a time that works for you, say, after 1 your time / 10 am my time?

Thanks!

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Thursday at 2PM my time, then;-) Use the information I have sent to you already.

Mags

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Mag/William - I'm interested in one of William's other comments, the one about assigning DNA results to members of the 'group'. Is that a 'flow-through' of data from FTDNA or does your tool simply act as an aggregator of profiles under Wikitree using a 'tag'?

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Hey Leake - to have your Group Project members from FTDNa "In" WikiTree they would need to join WikiTree and add their DNA. The Project would not do that. For any group project members who have passed? They and their data can be added. But - Since a space page can be set to open or viewable all project members can see the information on a Group Project Page.

So no the Project applications we are working on and with do not have the capacity to connect DNA to a persons profile and we would not want to do that.

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Mags -- I think this morning's call probably addressed the current communication needs. Unless you see any other, we can probably free the block on your Thursday afternoon. Just let me know if you want to talk more this week.

I'll add one of the deceased Hatcher results to mitoY -- Peter sent me a link to complete directions -- and add "copy the rest" to my long, long Hatcher to do list. Adding the Hatchers to WikiTree would require more effort. The tree down from the common Hatcher ancestors is a bit sparse, listing 400+ people. Our genealogical database shows 25000+, but includes women.

Thanks again for allowing me to join the discussion!

William

Answer 10

How do we move the  

Burgoon Burgan Burgun 

Project over?

Comments

Hey Laura,

There are step by step instructions on the DNA Group Project Page (link in the original post). We are working on automating much of this, and that should roll out soon. In the meantime, if you would like to help with the project or get a guided tour we have been doing Zoom meetings, Let me know and we can set one up.

Mags

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Hi Mags,  I am going to send you a private message.

Answer 11

Hmm... This looks like a very unique project...

I may look to undertake this approach/challenge.

My mother and I both had our DNA tested in 3 places separately (Ancestry, FamilyTreeDNA & 23andMe).

~Brian Kerr

Comments

Brain, it doesn't matter how small or big the project. We might need to think about how to get your ideas for a small project implemented. Would love to hear your ideas.

Mags

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The size of a project doesn't really matter much to me. I always love a little challenge from time to time. :-)

It's more or less the subject, content, goal, etc... of the project as well the ability, knowledge, time, etc... needed/required from me to really make enough of a contribution/difference to the Project/Task I would need to provide.

I've got a feeling that I may have OVER explained this... LOL! :-P

~Brian Kerr

Answer 12

WikiTree has proved excellent for running the Gilbert Y-DNA Project.  I produce a page for each unique lineage and then check to see which names in the ancestral line back to the MDKA are already on WikiTree, and for those that are not, I am slowly producing profiles.  Eg:  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Gilbert_Name_Study_-_DNA_Lineage_15

Comments

Nice Chris!

We have automation that can format the relationship trails from WikiTree and other places people may have them, into Wiki markup language.

Relationship Trail Formatter application 

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Thanks but I much prefer the way I am showing the trail as it lends itself to showing how other branches fit it

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I like your version Chris and to each his own. The Relationship Trail Formatter is offered as an assist in getting lots of trails for people unfamiliar with wiki markup.

Answer 13

I just learned about this project. And I am so happy that it exists!

But let me say that although there is no explicit language to say so, the tone and the links suggest that the project focuses on Y-DNA and mtDNA. And in my opinion, WikiTree should be taking its place as the leader in auDNA groups, and there is potentially a missed opportunity here?

Blaine Bettinger recently gave a talk “The Future of Genetic Genealogy,” and he talked about the potential for an “Ancestor Segment Database.” I have long thought that Wikitree was *the* site to make this happen, and let me be candid: my first instinct when I saw Blaine’s post was anger, since it sounds like someone is trying to put this together elsewhere. Such a database cannot have any utility unless combined with tree info through genealogical research, so WikiTree with its huge existing genealogical database combined with DNA functionality is the perfect place for this to happen.

I recently posted a question that really needs an auDNA project to progress:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1649157/taylor-families-early-1800s-sw-ohio

And frankly, a project at GEDmatch won’t cut it, because not enough people will upload DNA. But they will join WikiTree! The ease of entry, lack of requirement to include raw DNA data, and focus on good sourcing and documentary analysis should make WikiTree preeminent in this up-and-coming area.

There are so many things like the little project I mentioned above. If it hasn’t happened already, people will be finding and wanting to publish info about little segments they believed belonged to Jamestown Colonists, Mayflower Passengers, or more likely their grandchildren. It is often said that auDNA isn’t useful back that far, but that’s only because it is only rarely useful at that distance and it is hard to distinguish those few cases where it is from the chaff. That’s exactly what medium- or large-sized projects can provide.

I hope WikiTree can be proactive to become the go-to “Ancestor Segment Database.”

Comments

I like that Idea Barry. Each DNA Group Project is wherever the Project Admin wants it to be, so...

How would you set it up?