Gwallter Sais (Walter "the Englishman"[2]) was the son of Rhosser fychan ap Rhosser Fawr (Roger the younger, son of Roger the Great).[3]
Walter married Florence, daughter and co-heiress of Sir Walter Bredwardine, Knight.[4]
"Walter Seys...won renown and wealth in the wars of Edward III. In the pedigree books, he is said to have m. the heiress of Sir Walter Bredwardine, and to have taken up residence at Bredwardine, followed by his son, Rhosier 'Hen,' who m. a daughter of Sir Walter Devereux, and his grandson, Roger Vaughan, who m. Gwladys, daughter of Dafydd Gam (q.v.), and fell with his father-in-law in the personal defence of Henry V on the field of Agincourt, 1415."[5]
"VAUGHAN family of Bredwardine, Herefordshire. This was the main branch of the Vaughans who traced their descent, through WALTER SEYS, to MOREIDDIG WARWYN (to whom the origin of the family's coat of arms, three boys’ heads with a snake entwined about their necks, was ascribed), and thence to DRYMBENOG AP, lord of Brycheiniog.[5]
"The family had accumulated property at Llechryd in Elvael and Cwm Du before Walter Seys had won renown and wealth in the wars of Edward III."[5]
In a January 1371 record in the Devereux Papers, a daughter of Walter Seys, Margaret, appears in an annulment:
"Notification by the Commissary General in the Archdeaconry of Brecknock of the annulment of the marriage of Walter, son of Sir Walter Devereux (Deveros), and Margaret, daughter of Walter Seys."[6]
Children
by Florence
Roger Hen of Bredwardine (d 1415) m Ann, da. of Sir Walter Devereaux[3]
Sir Roger Vaughan (d 1415) m Gwladus f. Sir Dafydd Gam (d 1415)[3]
Gwladus f. Roger Hen, m Jenkin ap Hywel ap Gwilwm[7]
Estimated Date: Birth year guess of "about 1320" is based on daughter Alice's birth about 1340. Seys-8 (merged profile) also had birth year as "about 1320".
Disputed Mother
While sources agree that his father was Roger Fychan, they do not agree on his mother, who was either Joyce Walbyf[3] or Joan Baskerville.
Bartrum (Drymbenog 2) shows Walter's mother as Joyce, daughter of John Walbyf, and his grandmother (wife of Roger Fawr) as Jane, daughter of Ralph Baskerville. Jones (p 505) shows Roger Fawr as husband of Joice, daughter of William Walbieffe, and the wife of Roger Fawr's son "Rhosser Fychan" as "a d. of Sir Ralph Baskerville by a d. of Sir Miles Pitcher." Norr shows Walter Sais as the son of Jane Baskerville (#Norr).
↑ "Sais, i.e., Englishman, was often given to those who had passed most of their time in England" (p 47, footnote 3 #Dwnn); "Gwalter Sais (English-speaking)" (Prichard Ancestry); "Sais" translates to "Englishman" (in Google translate)
The Bartrum Project, digitization of "Welsh Genealogies AD 300- 1500" by Peter C. Bartrum (mirrored from the defunct Cadair site by Geni: Bartrum Genealogical Project - free login required to access the charts). See additional information about Cadair in G2G.
Drymbenog 2, Roger Fawr ap Ieuan (Gwallter's grandfather)
Godwin 3, Hywell m Mallt (father of Jenkin by Gwenllian f. Hywel)
Lewis Dwnn, Heraldic Visitations Of Wales And Part Of The Marches Between The Years 1586 And 1613 Vol.1
page 196, footnote 11: "Walter Sais ap Roger Vychan of Llechry, and...Florence, daughter and co-heiress of Sir Walter Bredwardine, Knight"
page 190: Gwalter Seis, Esg., m "Florens [daughter of] a choeyr* Syr Pyrs Brodorddyn kt., father of Rosser hen [married] Jan v Syr Water Defrax". Also, a generation appears to be missing: this p 190 pedigree skips father Rhosser Vychan m Joyce Walbyf and goes right to grandfather Rhosser Fawr m Jan f. Basgrvil
I don't know what "choeyr" means. Sister is chwaer - maybe choeyr is niece? (#Bartrum shows Florence as grand-niece of Sir Pirs.)
Jones, Theophilus; A History of the County of Brecknock: : in two volumes : containing the chorography, general history, religion, laws, customs, manners, language and system of agriculture used in that county. pp. 500-5; Publisher: Brecknock. Printed and sold by Wm. & Geo. North ... for the author ; and sold by J. Booth ... London., 1805-1809
WikiTree profile Vaughn-680 created through the import of Ryanraymondextended with bosto (2).ged on Dec 22, 2011 by Kevin Ryan. See the Changes page for the details of edits by Kevin and others.
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While doing research on Walter Devereux and others, Michael Cayley, a leader of the Magna Carta Project, shared with me a 1371 annulment record for Walter Devereux and Margaret Seys, daughter of Walter. I added it here and I am hopeful that someone can identify where she fits in with the children listed... could she be Angharad?
NOTE: The Bartrum Project link appears to be dead.
I was hoping that wasn't the case. I made my initial post specific so that anyone following knows who Michael is because I know it is awkward for you to read that!
Last September I was given a link to Bartrum Project by Aberystwyth U to a new site for the papers. However it was virtually unsearchable. There were plans to make it searchable. Today that link is not working. I will follow up.
Vaughn-680 and Sais-6 appear to represent the same person because: Same wife, same birth year, and same death place. Also same father (Roger Vaughan is English equivalent of the Welsh name Rhosser Vychan).
ok. Now that it's going to be the basis of the LNAB, I'm looking for the source for the "Rhosser" as the spelling of Roger & can't find it. (doesnt matter which spelling we use, but I like to include the source as I had cited Bartrum for Sais... If you or Michelle don't know, I can post to G2G & ask how the Welsh would have spelled Roger in the last 1200s/early 1300s)
Hi Liz, It appears that the LNAB should be ap Rhosser. Since you had the protection put on, I assumed it would make more sense for you to handle it. I also noticed you & Michelle were part of the discussion on Welsh naming, and based on your comments on same, you obviously know much more about this subject than I ... also since these rascals are your relatives ... Id much prefer if you'd take the reins on these guys. 8 - )
I cant add/remove. Contact Vic Watt to remove it (leader of the Cymru project - http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Watt-266 ). What are yall changing his name to?
Sais/Seys discussion mostly wrapped up in discussion on son (Hen/Vaughan merge) ... start at the bottom with first comment 6 July, "05:21 GMT" on Vaughan-1934. Elsewhere, but not sure where - maybe Daniel or my profile page - was that the more recognizable Vaughan & Sais (used in Bartrum) would work better as LNsAB than "ap Gwalter" for Roger Hen Vaughan & "ap Rhosser" (or ap Rossier, ap Rhoser, ap Rosser...) for Walter Sais/Seys/Seyes. If you feel strongly that his WikiTree ID should be "ap [Welsh version of Roger]" & Daniel's OK with that, we can change one of the profiles to be ap WhateverSpelling & merge them once the wives are with their correct husbands. (whatever his LNAB, Walter's mom is Joyce Walbyf, to use Bartrum spelling).
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NOTE: The Bartrum Project link appears to be dead.
edited by Darrell Larocque