Richard (Praers) de Praers
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Richard (Praers) de Praers

Richard de Praers formerly Praers
Born [date unknown] in Presles, Normandy, Francemap [uncertain]
Son of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Husband of — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Died after in Cheshire, Englandmap
Problems/Questions Profile managers: Andrew Lancaster private message [send private message] and Kenneth Shelton private message [send private message]
Profile last modified | Created 25 Dec 2016
This page has been accessed 3,851 times.

Contents

Biography

Richard was an early 12th-century tenant of the Earl of Chester, known from English records. As explained by Keats-Rohan, the family was Norman, named after Presles, near Vire (modern postcode 14410).[1] As explained by Loyd, Presles "occurs as 'Praelliae' in 1198 and as 'Praeriae' in 1269", and it was "an important possession of the earls of Chester" in France.[2]

As will be explained, he might have already been in Domesday Book (1086) but this is uncertain.

Family

In a large charter confirming many earlier grants to Chester Abbey, confirmed by Richard, Earl of Chester, and supposedly made 1119, Richard and two sons, Adam and William, gave Noctorum, across the Mersey river from modern Liverpool. One version of that charter (copy "E") adds "and Lambert", but the wording does not explain what Lambert's connection is to the others. This same copy "E" also mentions "Ricardo de Praeres et Gutha" as witnesses to another grant which is not listed in other copies.[3]

Ormerod assumed this Gutha, whose name he reinterpreted as Galtha, was Richard's wife, and the mother of Adam and William. See below.[4]

Apparent and possible sons identified so far:

  • Adam de Praers, son mentioned in 1119 confirmation.[4] Appears alone as a witness in a Cheshire charter made in the 1120s.[5] According to Baraclough, (p.53) he does not appear after about 1145.
  • William de Praers, son mentioned in 1119 confirmation.[4]
  • (possible son) Henry, appears in the time of King Henry II, listed by Ormerod.[4] This proposal does not match well with newer understandings of the chronology of these generations.
  • (possible son) Lambert, mentioned in copy E of the 1119 charter with no description of his relationship. He appears as an illegitimate son in some internet genealogies, but that is apparently just a speculation.

Barraclough's edition also shows evidence of a Matheus Praers as a witness in later charters of the Earl, after Adam stops appearing, approximately in the time Henry II. Perhaps Matheus was the successor of one of Richard's sons, such as Adam.

Domesday

Tait, in his edition of the Noctorum charter, noted:[6]

Noctorum in Wirral was granted by Richard de Praers, who may be identified probably with the Richard [with no surname] who held it and “Claitone" in Atiscros hundred under Wilham Malbank in 1086, an identification which seems to have escaped the genealogists. He is supposed to have been the ancestor through his son Adam, a witness to this grant, of the Praers of Barthomley and other Malbank manors in Nantwich hundred.

And Tait adds that in Domesday Book, Richard was possibly also a tenant of Hugh Fitz-Osbern at Edritone, also in the Cheshire hundred of Atiscros.[7]

More recently however, in her series of works, Domesday People and Domesday Descendants, Keats-Rohan does not list him as someone appearing in Domesday Book. She lists the Domesday Richard of Barraclough's charter 8 as "Ricardus Pincerna" - equating him to the person found in Barraclough's charter 26.[8] Philip Morgan of the Hull project also does not remark on any such Praers connection (nor any connection to Richard Pincerna).[9] Tait remarks that Richard Pincerna was succeeded by a Robert.[10]

Barthomley

The mesne manor and advowson came to be held under the barons of Wich Malbank by a Praers family. Ormerod is the main modern source still cited today for the idea that Richard's son Adam is the ancestor of a family who held Barthomley.[11]

Research notes

Earlier relatives

In an early 12th century charter by Earl Richard of Chester and King Henry I, concerning grants which were apparently made before 1115, confirmation was made of grants to Troarn by Ranulf de Prateriis and his nepos (nephew or grandson) Alfred de Combray, who was apparently acting as an heir for the lands involved, which were in Normandy and England.[12] As noted by Barraclough, the occasion of this grant involved a new priory dependent to Troarn, and:

The site of the new priory, at Mesnil-Bréhier in wild wooded country near Presles (dep. Calvados, canton Vassy), had been given towards the close of the eleventh century by Thurstan de Presles, or Praers (de Prateriis). a tenant of the honour of Chester, of whose family a branch settled at Barthomley (Cheshire), and was confirmed by his son Ranulf, with the assent of Ranulf’s own son Hasculf, at the beginning of the twelfth century[13]

Apparently not noticed yet, the same group of people also appear in more French charters, and they appear to have also had a contemporary named Radulf.[14]

Keats-Rohan (p.648) notes that Ranulf had a brother named Robert who died as a monk in Troarn in Normandy about 1120.


The chartulary or register of the abbey of St. Werburgh, Chester

"Ricardus de Praers dedit Cnoctirum. Teste Willelmo et Adam filiis suis".

Translation-Richard Praers gives Cnoctirum. Witnessed by William and Adam his children.[15] [16]

"Noctorum in Wirral was granted by Richard de Praers, who may be identified probably with the Richard who held it and “ Claitone " in Atiscros hundred under Wilham Malbank in 1086, an identification which seems to have escaped the genealogists.® He is supposed to have been the ancestor through his son Adam, a witness to this grant, of the Praers of Barthomley and other Malbank manors in Nantwich hundred". [17]

366 . "Quitclaim by Robert le (rectius de) Praers of lordship and lodging-right in the land in Northgate Street which William, son and heir of Nicholas Franceys, gave to the monks (No. 363). c. 1250-1313". "Robertus le Preeres quietum clamauit dominium et hostillagium que habuit in tota medietate terre, que quondam diuisa fuit hereditarie inter Nicholaum Franceys et Thomam Heward per decessum Eue amite eorum, in Nortgatestrete, iacentem inter terram quam predictus N[icholaus] de domino Ada le Preeres patre suo tenuit et terram quam prefatus T[homas] Hereward de Willelmo filio Colberti aliquando tenuit, quam quidem medietatem terre Willelmus filius et heres predicti N (icholai) monachis dedit". "The grantor was probably Robert de Praers of Baddiley, son of the Adam mentioned in the note on No. 363, who died in 1312-13" [18]

Ormerod gives a quite different account to Wikitree

Sources

  1. K S B Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, p.650.
  2. Lewis Christopher Loyd, The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families, p 83.
  3. Tait ed. (1920) The chartulary or register of the abbey of St. Werburgh, Chester, p.40. This is charter 8 in Barraclough. Note the remarks of both scholars concerning the veracity and date of the charter.
  4. 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 Ormerod, Volume 3, page 301.
  5. Tait, p.50
  6. Tait, charter 5, p.44.
  7. "Edritone", Cheshire, on the Open Domesday website: https://opendomesday.org/place/SJ3361/edritone/
  8. Keats-Rohan, Domesday People, p.367.
  9. Hull project notes for Cheshire: The University of Hull https://hydra.hull.ac.uk/resources/hull:530
  10. Tait, p.45, footnote 3.
  11. Ormerod, Volume 3, page 299.
  12. Barraclough, The Charters of the Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, charter 9, p.16-.
  13. Barraclough,p.18.
  14. See for example:
  15. https://archive.org/details/chartularyorregi791manc/page/40/mode/2up?q=Praers
  16. https://archive.org/details/chartularyorregi791manc/page/68/mode/2up?q=+Praers
  17. https://archive.org/details/chartularyorregi791manc/page/44/mode/2up?q=Praers
  18. https://archive.org/details/chartularyorregi791manc/page/240/mode/2up?q=Robertus+le+Preeress




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Comments: 14

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I propose we remove the new section "The chartulary or register of the abbey of St. Werburgh, Chester". It reproduces, with errors etc, information which was already in this article. Can anyone give a reason not to?
posted by Andrew Lancaster
Praers-16 and Stokes-1289 do not represent the same person because: Randle or Ranulphus was the g/grandson of Richard and Galtha who married in (1119). Randle de Praers lord of Stoke, whose descendants assumed the name of Stoke. Until this generation, there was no given last name Stoke.

"The manor was given by Randal de Praers to his son, who assumed the name Stoke, and later passed to the Beeston and Aston families. By (1622), it was held by the Minshull family of Stoke Hall" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoke,_Cheshire_East

posted on Stokes-1289 (merged) by Kenneth Shelton
Kenneth, what is the reason for the merge rejection please? Randle is clearly a different person. Why do you mention who owned the manor in the 17th century? These comments seems to have no connection at all to this merge proposal. The two Richards are the husband of Gutha, who was known as de Praeres.

https://archive.org/details/Chartersoftheearlsofchester/page/n51/

https://archive.org/details/chartularyorregi791manc/page/40/mode/2up

When we do a merge of medieval profiles, as you surely know, they often have different surnames because medieval people often did not really have surnames. The surnames on Wikitree are very often made up, just like the birth years and death years are. There is no acceptable source being given here. So using reasons like this to block merges is not a reasonable approach. We have to clean things up. If your point is that the merged profile should not have the surname Stoke then that would not be a reason for a merge rejection would it? Please be constructive and explain what should be done here.

posted on Stokes-1289 (merged) by Andrew Lancaster
This profile still exists and as far as I can tell no one thinks it is a real person. What should we do with it?
posted on Stokes-1289 (merged) by Andrew Lancaster
Praers-16 and Stokes-1289 appear to represent the same person because: Same? Andrew, do the merge, like you said who knows what the last names were?
posted on Stokes-1289 (merged) by Kenneth Shelton
edited by Kenneth Shelton
We need a better source for the son Lambert
posted by Andrew Lancaster
The son and his wife appear to be based on confusion and poor sourcing, so will probably need to be disconnected and that profile can be recycled. (But this particular profile clearly represents a real person, and should be merged to our other profile for that person.)
posted on Stokes-1289 (merged) by Andrew Lancaster
Praers-16 and Stokes-1289 appear to represent the same person because: As discussed already
posted on Stokes-1289 (merged) by Andrew Lancaster
Praers-16 and Stokes-1289 do not represent the same person because: If Stokes was born 1117, he could not be the person who was involv ed with a charter -- which his sons also wit4nessed -- in 1119.
posted on Stokes-1289 (merged) by Jack Day
And as you know very well Jack, as a person who does it a lot, such unsourced dates on Wikitree are just made up on Wikitree, to fit with whatever is on Wikitree. So this really is a deliberately misleading merge rejection explanation. I will delete that birth year 1117, and disconnect the parents and then re-propose.

Is there anything I need to delete in order to move forward and avoid such artificial problems?

I find it very frustrating that you work to deliberately make editing on Wikitree unpleasant and difficult for people who disagree with your eccentric methodology.

posted on Stokes-1289 (merged) by Andrew Lancaster
Disconnect from father? If not, what would be the reason?
posted on Stokes-1289 (merged) by Andrew Lancaster
Disconnect from parents?

Ormerod gives a quite different account to Wikitree

  • George Ormerod, The history of the county palatine and city of Chester: Leycester's Cheshire antiquities. pp.299ff. Also see 359.
posted by Andrew Lancaster
edited by Andrew Lancaster
Stokes-1289 and Praers-16 appear to represent the same person because: Clearly intended to be the same person with the same wife (also merge proposal). Confusion comes from poor sourcing, confusion about the children, and two different old stories about the parents of this Richard.
posted by Andrew Lancaster
It seems likely that he was born closer to c1080, since a DOB of 1085 would have made him only 5 years old at the birth of Lamberto.
posted by Steve Selbrede

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