What can we know about Joanna le Boteler?

Question

Warin de Raleigh is well documented, as are Ralph le Boteler and his wife Matilda Pantulf.  So it's not surprising to see that Ralph and Matilda had a daughter Joanne, born, say, 1253, who married Warin.

Except that the best sources for Joanne, who appears all over the internet, appear to be Marlin Lewis, who cites someone's research, and Geni.  And that's not persuasive.

Ralph and Matilda's son William is written up by Richardson, who does not mention a sister Joanna.  Richardson notes Warin's children, but does not mention that they had a mother named Joanna.

Can anyone find any records showing Joanna actually existed?

Answer 1

Do we know what sources Richardson is using for the daughters of Joanna?

Comments

In “Records of the Jeanes-Janes family” , John de Breteche married Margaret , widow of Warin de Ralegh and daughter of Lord Boteler of Overley. Collinson vol ii. Page 314 has the same entry ( under “Butcombe” )  see here :

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AVQ-encaUrMC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=lord+boteler+of+overley&source=bl&ots=3VPmow5fZm&sig=ACfU3U2VG1De-VpC0Wyu5LvgSjrWvbi8Gg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWg6OYyfHkAhWBtXEKHf0sACYQ6AEwD3oECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=lord%20boteler%20of%20overley&f=false

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P.S. it’s just a guess, but DCM May be Dunster Castle Muniments.

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And that John de Breteche had a daughter Joan according to: 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Ww5UAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=lord+boteler+of+overley&source=bl&ots=_DOYGDUQi5&sig=ACfU3U00eTSblSUUzJiIvSkhfYFvIT280A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjWg6OYyfHkAhWBtXEKHf0sACYQ6AEwDXoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=lord%20boteler%20of%20overley&f=false

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I’ve uploaded a photo ( to Margaret’s profile )of the paragraph where Collinson describes Margaret as daughter of Lord Boteler. It would be interesting to find the actual original source for this information.One is given as Rot. Fin. 3 Hen III

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Jack, yes in cases like this there is room for discussion. I agree. I guess John does also.

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Sorry Jack, but I reaffirm that I think the profile of Joanna should be marked as Uncertain Existence.  The gap of 200 or so years when she is supposed to have lived and is first mentioned is a definite question mark as to whether she ever existed or the genealogy is incorrect somewhere.  

Particularly as we know that the Tudor Heralds were very prone to invent connections to try to prove the nobility of that time were connected to medieval nobility.  At this stage I haven't even come across a primary source that confirms her first name, let alone her family.

Thanks Joe - if Margaret is a member of the Boteler family then that might preclude Joanna from being a member of the same family given consanguinity rules of that time, though there were probably several families with that surname.  

It also points to the importance in these situations of re-investigating the whole family.

Thanks also for DCM - it is certainly Dunster Castle Muniments, as the same author refers to them in the Preface to another work on the same topic.

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Meant to add the Rot. Fin Henry III are I presume the Fine Rolls (Rotuli) but I can't see any mention of them in the translations of the rolls of Henry III

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@Joe, thanks for the two additional narrative finds.  Based on them I created a profile for John de Breteche, his daughter Joan, his father John and his grandfather Richard.  

John de Breteche, it is said, married Margaret, widow of Warin de Raleigh.  I've attached the two with a toggle in the bio rather than a link in the data field at the moment, because there are enough dated facts -- fines and property matters -- that I haven't yet figured out a set of dates that would fit them PLUS fit the same woman having two children by two husbands within a normal set of child-bearing years.

Before you had posted the links, I had already changed Margaret's LNAB from Boteler to Unknown, which I would not have done had I been more patient!  But I won't change it back or actually make the link until the various facts floating out there fit better!

@John, I think with Uncertain Existence, we do need to err, if errors are made, on the side of those who think the label should be there, so though I disagree, on it goes!  With the understanding that the Uncertain Existence category/label carries the implication that more research is needed!

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When Arthur Collins' Peerage (1779) touches on this family, he cites "Camden's Russet Folio Pedigrees" as his source.  When I google the Camden reference, however, all that comes up is citations in Arthur Collins book.  What do we know about Camden's pedigrees?

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It must be William Camden, but whether this is something that has been published I don't know?  It might be included in something else?