Is anyone working on the Gardiner lineage to Charlemagne?

Question

I have seen a few articles that indicate a Gardiner/ Gardner lineage goes all the way to Charlemagne.  Online ex: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89066147604;view=1up;seq=31

I started to follow an aunt's lineage and noted there is a PPP profile by PGM at Gardiner-38 that is sadly in need of assistance.  It is interesting how so many royals married into royals of other countries,  

Comments

Hi David,

Hoping only to be helpful, the link as "Online ex" ports me to a "Page not found" at Hathi Trust.

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Hi again David Wilson,

You wrote, "there is a PPP profile by PGM at Gardiner-38 that is sadly in need of assistance."  

Might you provide some specifics about the priorities you would like to see addressed?  

I am looking over the profile of George R. Gardner/Gardiner-38 now; your input would be helpful.

Thank you in advance.--GeneJ

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Hi David,

Have made a humble attempt to add a disputed origins and parentage section to the profile.

Hope you will let me know if this addresses some of your questions.--GeneJ

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Thank you GeneJ;  I added links to George's alleged parents into the biography and detached them from the profile.

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Thank you John! You are my hero.

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Hi again John Schmeeckle,

Have posted another comment to the board on George Gardiner. This regards disposition of the wife, Sarah Slaughter.

In brief, should a profile for George Gardiner of Clerkenwell be created so that wife Sarah can be attached (and thus detached from George Gardiner, Rhode Island immigrant)?

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Hi Gene,

Thank-you for your effort.  The link should point to: Gardiner-Gardner genealogy, including the English ... . Miller, Clara Gardner, b. 1861.

View full catalog record

Copyright: Public Domain, Google-digitized.

 

Once in full view, page 18 is a simplified track.  George's Father Rev. Michael Gardiner has several pending merges.  

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Hi David,

(1) I have not identified the several pending merges about Rev. Michael Gardiner. See Gardiner-186.

(2) Any feedback from you on the changes made earlier today to George's profile, Gardiner-38? 

(3) See John's answer below, too. Might you comment if you think creating a profile for Sarah Slaughter's husband, George, is a good idea, including that the new profile would be linked only in the text to both Rev. Michael Gardiner and our Rhode Island immigrant, George. 

Thank you in advance.

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To Gardiner-38, I'm working now to attach Lydia Ballou as wife, also, as this union is confirmed by several sources, including Moriarty. Rick Pierpont comments quite some months back, asking that Ballou-183 be attached as a spouse to Gardiner-38.

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Thank-you for your assistance with this lineage GeneJ X!

My "Coffee Table Book"  -Willson, Richard Eugene. comp. ''The Willson Family 1672-1979'' Ottawa, IL:[s.n.],1979. Print. This edition incorporates 2 previous volumes which are available from Hathi Trust online... contains two different appendices regarding the lineage, p. 155-156, 157-161.  Reference sources given are the Miller Book mentioned above p. 18-20, John S, Wurts. Magna Charta, Vol. I, p. 178-182.   Brookfield Pub. Co. 1970; G. Buzzi. The Life and Times of Charlemagne . N.Y. Danbury Press. 1972, p. 8, 124, 125; W. H. Turton.  The Plantagenet Ancestry. Baltimore, MD. Genealogical Publishing Co. 1975. p. 171;  Alexander Dubin. Five Hundred First Families of America. Third Edition. N.Y. Historical Publication Society. 1970-1971. p. 109; Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford Univ. Press. 1948. Vol. XXI. p. 18; Vol. IX, p. 436, 451; Edna Anne Hannibal. Clement Briggs of Plymouth Colony and his descendants 1621-1965. 1966, p. 16,  History of Morrow Co. and Ohio Chicago. O. L. Baskin Co. 1880.   

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Regarding Gardiner-186...Wasn't he the rector of Holy Cross Church, Greenford Magna, England?   What do you think about merging 2nd wife Browne-1598 into Browne-260 ?  I prefer consensus when dealing with these early profiles.  Wasn't Margaret the daughter of Thomas Browne and Alice Chapman?

Gardiner-38 looks much better.  Thank-you!  I added a note about the image not being George and actually being Sylvester.  I also believe his mother's maiden name was Haword not Howard. Daughter of Michael Haword of Jenynsbury.

Working up the linage, there are also merges to be considered in the Elizabeth Neville (duplicates) whom married Thomas Beaumont (duplicates).  Wasn't she the daughter of Agnes Scargill and Robert Neville of Leversedge, son of Sir Thomas Neville and Alice Gascoigne?

At this point, there are only another 28 steps to Charlemagne?

Help and feedback greatly appreciated!

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Hi David Wilson,

Thank you for your kind words and much effort.  

You wrote, "Willson, Richard Eugene, comp...1979 ...This edition incorporates two volumes which are available from Hathi Trust online."

I am not familiar with Willson's 1979 or earlier volumes. Via Hathi Trust, I did search a one volume work by this author (dated 1959) for the surnames Gardiner (no returns) and Gardner (six returns that did not seem relevant). See "The Willson family, 1672-1959." Hope to learn from you what I missed, etc. 

As to the PGM Rhode Island immigant ... 

As I understand, Miller and Stanton's work (1937) combines source information about what may be three different men* of the same name--all George Gardiner. These "three" George Gardiners are Rev. Michael Gardiner's son, Sarah Slaughter's husband, and our Rhode Island immigrant.

Moriarty could find no historical basis/justification to assume the various records were about only one man. 

From your helpful list, it doesn't appear that Richard Eugene Willson cited Moriarty's 1944 article. It is still possible that Willson developed and incorporated additional historical discovery as regards our PGM, George Gardiner and/or Sarah Slaughter's husband. If that is the case, hopefully someone is able to identify those historical items so that we can begin to explain which part of the puzzle was thought to have been addressed. That is the best approach I know of to reconcile conflicting conclusions (in this case, back to Moriarty).

Does that make sense? --GeneJ

*In the event that  George, the father of Rebecca buried at Clerknewell, was not the same man who was the spouse of Sarah Slaughter. there would then be four. 

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Greetings GeneJ,

I was just reading some feedback from NEHGS regarding the inconsistencies in the 8 volumes of Magna Charta by Wurts.  I find this dissapointing due to the fact that he is co-sourced in the works of Miller and Robinson.  Though there does appear to be more substantial evidence recorded in State Records of Rhode Island regarding George Gardner/ Gardiner "The Colonist" and furthered through "Burkes Commoners" (Massachusetts).  This feeds into a theory that he may actually have been eldest son of Thomas of Roxbury.  Apparently, Caleb Gardiner was undisputely a son of Thomas and came to America due to family being already established.

The appendices I had mentioned above are in the 1st supplement Willson 1959-1979.  As I had mentioned my edit copy contains both original and supplement.  The Supplement is at Haiti Trust as "Limited View" and basically is reiteration of Google digitized version by Clara that is linked above and at "Archive" linked next.  

Rebecca may have been the young child carried by Herodius in the story found in biograghy. https://archive.org/stream/gardinersofnarra00robi#page/2/mode/2up

whom became 2nd wife to John Watson after her sister Dorcas (his 1st wife) died.

I am unfamiliar with any other work by Andrew Moriarty "American Genealogists- Parentage of George Gardiner."    

When I find profiles, especially PPP profiles that appear erroneous, G2G is a wonderful tool for collaboration.

Cheers!

David

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Hi David Wilson,

Thank you! The reason you couldn't identify Moriarty is my transcription error (source list to reference note).  Link that follows has a sketch about him:

He was both from Newport, Rhode Island (and Maine) and the fifth elected to National Genealogical Society's Hall of Fame. According to the brief sketch linked, he "achieved international eminence as an authority on English and Norman medieval families." Moriarty wrote 134 articles for the Register; more than 75 for The American Genealogist.  

Hopefully I've corrected my oversight, but if you spot another bugger, please flag me down. --GeneJ

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Hi David, 

"Rebecca may have been ..." 

Perhaps I didn't follow this.

The burial of Rebecca Gardiner mentioned by Moriarty occured 1659 at St. James, Clerkenwell, London, as I recall. 

I understand that our Rhode Islander's daughter Rebecca survived to marry a John Watson. I don't find a reason to suspect she was buried at England, nor under the surname Gardiner.

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To David Wilson, it looks like there are ZERO generations to Charlemagne, because there is no evidence for the parents of George Gardner.   This Gardiner lineage stops at a brick wall at the edge of the Atlantic Ocean.   Please keep in mind that WikiTree follows the research of Robert Charles Anderson (for early immigrants to New England) and Douglas Richardson (for lineage back to medieval royalty).  Neither of these authorities recognizes any known parents of George Gardner.  Of course there might be breaking new research somewhere, backed up by newly-discovered primary sources.  If you know of anything like that, please let us know!

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Regarding Rebecca Gardiner who was buried in 1659 in London, it is conceivable that her father George was a nephew or cousin (or son??) of George of Rhode Island and/or of Thomas of Roxbury.  There are a lot of tantalizing snippets here, but it would take some serious research to establish (or disprove) firm family connections.  One possibility that should be kept in mind:  Perhaps George was older than assumed by Moriarty, and perhaps he had a first wife who died without known children.  We simply don't know.  I mention this because his guesstimated 1615 birth year is based on the questionable assumption that Herodias Long was his first wife. 

In the realm of speculation, we could imagine that George Gardiner abandoned wife Sarah Slaughter and son George (or perhaps journeyed alone to America and was blocked by circumstances from returning or sending for them) and then picked up the cast-off Herodias Long (only to divorce after years of marriage with children), whose life story is well worth a developed profile.

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Hoping only to be helpful, I found Moriarty's work on the topic of George's age based on more than the assumption that Herodias was his first wife.

Moriarity opened the work on this point with,  "In view of the fact that we have no statement regarding his age, the ages of his wives and children become a matter of importance." George was of age in 1638 (freemanship), thus 1618 became an outside parameter.

Separate from a discussion of the wives, Moriarty went into detail about how he approached the known children's ages/births in order to conclude that all "were born approximately between 1644 and 1675, a period of some thirty years."

Moriarty then wrote, "while it would, perhaps, be possible for a man born in 1600 to have had a child born as late as 1674, when he was 74 years old, it is not probable, and still more improbable to have five children born between 1667 and 1674, i.e., between the ages of 67 and 74."

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Thanks GeneJ, I haven't seen Moriarty and George's second set of children hasn't been added to WikiTree.  I agree that the set of late children makes it unlikely (but not impossible) that George was born in 1600.

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Thanks GeneJ and John,

To clarify, the above named Rebecca may have been the child supposedly carried by her mother Herodias on her way to the Quaker whipping.

 https://archive.org/stream/gardinersofnarra00robi#page/2/mode/2up

One of the interesing things about genealogy is the facts change as more evidence becomes available!  As noted above, John Wurts had written and sold multitudes of his 8 volumes regarding the Magna Charta.  Now it has become apparent that much of his work has been disproven...

Cheers!

David

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Hi John,

Regarding the speculation <gasp... LOL> Miller and Stanton, in the link posted about Rebecca daughter of "The Colonist" had posed that perhaps his parents were actually those of "Joseph Gardiner" as recorded in passenger lists and via comparison of ages and DOB.  Clara Gardiner Miller had spent a majority of her life researching this line.

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Hi David,

I'm going to assume we are in agreement--the Rebecca, dau. of George Gardiner, who was buried at London is not preumed or possibly the child of that name born t the Rhode Island immigrant. The immigrant's daughter is said to have been "at the breast" in 1658 and later married John Watson.

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Hi GeneJ,

I believe the Rebecca whom is buried at England is likely the daughter of a George Gardiner and Sara Slaughter.  The absence of any records regarding that George and Sara after the arrival of "The Colonist" in America are rather cumbersome.  After reading Moriarty's account, and finding it hinges solely on an age differnce of 5-7 years due to fertility, and also pondering whom the parents of "The Colonist" were, more questions than answers have been found.  The antics of Herodias also traveling to America and becoming common-wed and having at least 3 known husbands is also intriguing.  A question of Benoni's mother may also be an issue?  If Sara died during the voyage to America it is within the "rhelms of possibility" that Moriarty is incorrect and "The Colonist" George is the son of Rev. Michael. and was married 3 times?   Time shall tell if Andrew Moriarty becomes a new John Wurts.  Thank-you for your time and efforts!

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I have occasionally found examples of two children, by different wives, being given the same name (and also cases of two children by the SAME wife being given the same name).  Therefore, it is not impossible that George Gardiner had an earlier daughter Rebecca (by a first wife) who stayed in England, and a later daughter Rebecca by Herodias.  I am not advocating this as a likely supposition, but with the evidence available, I hesitate to dismiss it out of hand.

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Hi John,

I was going to speak about George Foreman, but perhaps there is more on topic fodder to be found regarding earlier Gardiners and two younger brothers of "The Colonist" in the notes section at: 

https://archive.org/stream/gardinersofnarra00robi#page/200/mode/2up

the information at the top of page 201 is interesting!

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Hi I am researching my family history, surname is GARDINER, mothers maiden name. My nan was Muriel Joyce Gardiner, grandad was Ronald Gardiner , born in Kent England around 1900's to 1920's ...

Our nan had a family tree written dating back many many many years, this has been lost, but always remember her saying about Spanish ancestors 100's of years ago...

I've researched the name and their is ties to medieval France, 1066 Norman invasion, new world, ect.......

Any help would be great.

Andrew smith

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https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/portrait/D2CJ-6M8

I found this link while researching my Gardiner ancestry which goes back to Charlemagne.

 My father Peter Watts Watts-10778 and grandfather Nevile Watts Watts-10779 firmly believed that Christopher Gardiner -4353 of Minchinhampton Gloucestershire was related to William Gardiner and Anne Hastings. 

I need to know the descendants William, Thomas, Christopher, George and Harrye Gardiner by finding their baptisms and wills.

Answer 1

Yes, that would be a good solution, and then adding a link in the bio of George the immigrant. to the new George and wife Sarah, explaining the dubious connection.

Answer 2

I have no idea yet if the line I am working on points to Charlemagne. It does link to the Tudors (although I need to check the sources since I adopted a bunch of the profiles recently). 

Gardiner-160

Comments

I'd like to see some evidence for the parents of David Gardiner's father, Lion Gardiner.  "Lion" and "Lionel" (his supposed father) are admittedly similar, but this ancestral line hasn't been recognized by Douglas Richardson, as far as I know.  If accurate, this lineage is full of dozens of lineages back to Charlemagne, so I'd want to check the evidence very carefully!  Here's a website that claims that "Lion" and "Lionel" Gardiner were the same person: http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/d/e/n/Ed-C-Denne/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0408.html

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Thank you for the link John.