Why are all profiles of all Children born to English Nobility familes not added, but notes of Children are there?

Question

I am a brand new member (barely a week), but not new to Genealogy, as I have been compiling my tree for over 20 years, with focus on the English/Spanish Nobility trees and crossovers within families. I just got my 1700 badge, but still too new to get my 1500 badge, so I am unable to make corrections and add family members, where they are needed. Just one specific instance, is Margaret (Bonville) Courtenay.

The sources used are great ones, from a book. But, the book specifically lists a child Katherine Courtenay and this individual was not added (no profile) as one of her children with Thomas Rogers. If someone could help with this and others, or let me know if there is a way I could get early 1500 badge, so I can work on it while I have the time, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

Comments

The Pre-1500 Project has a way for you to get the new information added to WikiTree.  Here is the link to the section on their page about that.  

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Pre-1500_Profiles#Adding_Information_without_Certification

I'd suggest you start with the profile you'd like the child added to and leave a comment there.

Sure hope this helps!

Karen

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I'm not a 1500 expert nor a Plantagenet authority, by any means, but I've looked at the source linked. Katherine Courtenay doesn't appear to be the daughter of Margaret Bonville Courtenay, but rather her sister-in-law. She was the sister of Margaret's husband William Courtenay. Both William and Katherine Courtenay were children of Philip Courtenay and Elizabeth Hungerford. Katherine Courtenay, married Thomas Rogers. She has a WikiTree profile HERE.

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Plantagenet authority sounds interseting Nelda my 12th great grandmother was a Elizabeth Plantaganet :)

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I don't believe you are looking at the information correctly. Margaret Bonville and William Courtenay had a daughter Catherine. That daughter married Thomas Rogers. Here is the portion of the link that shows that:

William and Margaret's Children

Phillip and Elizabether Hungerford did have a daughter named Katherine, but their son William, who married Margaret Bonville, also had a daughter named Catherine (spelled differently). At least this is the information I have from my research.

I checked the link that you showed and it seems that entry might very well be incorrect also. I'm going to work on the links in the meantime between the time it takes for me to get my 1500 badge, but the Courtenay lines seem to have crossed and duplicates exist. If someone else wants to join in, I think I may start a Courtenay Project to see if these can be worked on and corrected.

There were many names that were repeated, as the names stayed in the family, so it can get quite confusing. Hopefully, someone will want to jump in and help check these profiles and make sure they are accurate and look for duplicates?

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Sisa, then, my last suggestion to you is that you correspond with and collaborate with the respective profile managers of the profiles you believe demonstrate incorrect relationships. All the best to you!

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To qualify for a  pre-1500 badge, you have to be very very good at properly sourcing and documenting. On your family tree already done, proper sources are lacking. You'll have to document those profiles first with good and genuine records.  Saying as a source something like "family notes" or "find a grave" or "ancestry tree"  etc. is not good enough. To get your pre-1500, you need GOOD stuff

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Thank you for your comment, but I didn't ask what was needed to get a 1500 badge, I clearly stated that I didn't have one yet and was asking about improper records of information about a specific group, that were lacking children added.

I do understand about sources, as I have been a Genealogist for over 20 years now, but since I just found this site, I have only put "Family Records" sources, to save time for now, to add the records and try to link individuals. I have also been trying to transfer my very large Gedcom, but since I don't have all the badges, they won't transfer in yet. So, in the meantime, I've just been trying to familiarize myself with the way things are done on this site, and also trying to transfer the actual census, etc records from my records to each profile, which is very time consuming, as I'm sure you are aware.

Thanks again for your comment

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You asked if you could get an early 1500 badge. I was responding to that query.

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Maybe you could split your gedcom into pre-1500 and post-1500 and just upload and work on the latter.

I have joined projects and groups to learn more about wikitree. They are great and helpful. Even with this I am nowhere near being capable to get my certification for pre-1500, thankfully G2G is here to help you.

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Welcome to the wonderful world of genealogy (and Wikitree), Sisa!  Twenty years makes you a newbie at this compared to the experience of many here (over 50 years for me).

On this site the most important thing is adding sources.  If you want a change it is necessary to provide the profile manager with a verifiable source.

I look forward to working with you.  I know that you have more than enough experience to make valuable contributions.

Regarding children not added:  That is a frequent occurrence here.  People often add only the child in which they have an interest and leave it to others to add another/others.  Not everyone adds all the siblings.  If there are sources on the profile for other children without profiles, you can add the profiles or add the category "Needs Profiles Created" to let others know there is information that hasn't yet been built out.

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And..Katherine was m. first to Seintclere Pomeroy, and 3rd to William Huddesfield.

Widow of Thomas Rogers

M 3rd William Huddesfeld.

She died 12 Jan 1515, Shillingford St George, Devon.

Huddesfeld William DEV knight 1497 W tr TAPS 12 Hen. VI. Will

Huddysfeld Katherine Stokelegh Pomerey [Stockleigh Pomeroy] DEV widow 1515 O ab TAPS 7 Hen. ViII. Ser. II. Vol. 30 (14) Inquisition post Mortem; George Rogers, son & heir

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Sisa, I've noticed the same about children.   My fiancé and I talk about it often.   While profiles "list" there are 10, and only 5 or 6 are entered.. means that the one entering the original information cared about those 5 or 6 or those 5 or 6 were important to them or to history and the other 4 or 5 were "just children".. or children who died as infants or children and they didn't feel it were important enough to take the time posting or researching.  

Some children, who grew to adulthood, were overlooked simply because they meant nothing to the one entering the information, even though they could be VERY important to your's or my family tree.   

My BIL entered a lot of names to our tree and skipped many of the children because he considered them "just children with names" but not the connected ancestor he wished to focus on.  Totally forgetting that perhaps they connected to someone else of great importance.  I'm filling in a LOT of blanks in our tree.  

Good luck with your efforts and 20 yrs of experience is quite impressive and important.   My fiancé and I have a combine effort of 60 years and neither negates the importance of each other's work.   I just know that his tree was huge and now mine added makes it even larger.   

Keep at it and keep having fun !!  Addressing the secondary note in your question :  I've been working to get my pre 1500 certification for several years and it's actually become unimportant to me now…  I post to meet requirements on G2G and it never gets counted for some reason so I'm not worrying anymore.  I have more important people to look up and tons of research left to do.  I have my records with correct information and it doesn't matter to us if it's online or not.   

GOOD LUCK !!!   

Sincerely, Rebecca

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The Katherine Courtenay who married Thomas Rogers was not the daughter of William Courtenay and Margaret Bonville.

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Thanks for responding, but, where do you have proof this is true? There are many sources with contradictory information. And, I don't mean sources like ancestry.com, or familysearch.org, but from well known authors of family history that have books published. If you have some hard evidence, please provide it, as I'm trying to uncover the truth.

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Thanks, that may be a good idea to try. I'm actually writing a new one, with specific family information for lines I want to follow and sort through information, to check for accuracy.

Answer 1

What is the title and author of the book?

And what source did the author use as proof that this child existed?

Also we have probably gotten into the habit of not adding children since we cannot add living children - but you are referring to a family from the 1400s.

Comments

This is the source that was used:

By Douglas Richardson: https://books.google.com/books?id=kjme027UeagC&pg=PA626&lpg=PA626&dq=Margaret+(Bonville)+Courtenay&source=bl&ots=qvFmKz5dek&sig=9kQTHV9rCZzeVn1xSCX2Law0Dac&hl=en&sa=X&ei=AYaEVc7hHYapgwT0j5WABQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Margaret%20(Bonville)%20Courtenay&f=false

It's not a bad source, by any means. But the question I asked was not about the source, it was about the fact that the source used, shows another child, but it was not added to the profile as one of the children and that child does not have a profile, which makes it hard to follow my family line and connect my tree. My Gedcom has all the correct information, it's just not added on Wikitree yet, because I don't have the 1500 badge, so can't do much of anything until I get it.

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That kind of issue really depends on the original person who created the parents' profiles. Many times people only create profiles for people who are in their direct line. (Which is not always bad, because especially for recent generations, descendants usually have more information and more accurate information.) And on here, if we are going several generations back someone might feel that a descendant will pick it up and work on it themselves. But yes, do look into a pre-1500 badge on Wikitree.

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Sorry Sisa, but I think you are misreading the source.  It definitely states that Katherine Courtenay the wife of Thomas Rogers was the daughter of Philip Courtenay, and Elizabeth Hungerford.

Richardson, seems to be mainly only listing the children who have descendants who are American Gateway Ancestors and only lists one child of William Courtenay and Margaret Bonville, which is 'a  Joan Courtenay who married William Carew'.

If you have other information that Richardson is incorrect, then please post that.

There is some discussion about the parents of Elizabeth Courtenay who married John Rogers here 

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Hi John,

Thanks so much for your comment. I wish my computer has not exploded some years back, where I lost ALL my Courtenay family information. I had to start all over again and it does get quite confusing when you start looking at children's names, etc. It is very easy for anyone to get confused. I am an "unofficial" member of the Courtenay Society (Need to pay dues)...lol. But, this is now a personal goal of mine, to get all the names, dates, etc correct, so I will be researching this again extensively to find the correct information. Would you be interested in a Courtenay Name project? Perhaps I can start one, so others can help work on it? I'm still too new to really know how to do that. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks again for your comment.

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Thanks for the response, but the source I included, was not my source, but one of the person who did the profile. There are other sources (well documented books) that show "A" Catherine as the daughter of William Courtenay and Margarget Bonville, that was married to Thomas Rogers. William did have a sister named Katherine, which is what leads to much confusion on the topic. Trust me, that I am researching this matter. If you can come up with anything, please let me know and thanks.

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I've added links on your other question but in brief:Katherine died as Huggefeld and left a will.This mentions her former husband Thomas Rogers. A memorial brass refers to her as Kateryn Huggefeld the daughter of Philip Courtnay.

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The Visitations of Cornwall, edited by J.L. Vivian does have Catherine as the daughter of William Courtenay and Margaret Bonville see here https://ukga.org/england/Cornwall/visitations/index.html  p. 108, but Vivian's edition isn't considered a particularly reliable source, and I have found other errors in the Courtenay genealogy in this volume, when compared with the original sources.

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Books are wonderful, but they still need to be considered to be reliable if we are to use them for genealogical verification as John briefly touched on.

Answer 2

Hi Sisa, and welcome to WikiTree.

The reason why siblings and other children are not in the tree is because no one has added them yet.  When I first put up my tree, I put only my direct ancestors with the intention of adding great-aunts and uncles later.  Later came earlier this month in the shape of the Connect-a-Thon and I added about 360 lateral ancestors.  In time I suppose, all of the siblings - across the tree - might be added.

For working on pre-1500 profiles, I would suggest you get with a badged member who could mentor you.  There is a new initiative to assist those who are not badged but want to make changes to pre-1500 profiles:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Pre-1500_Work_without_a_Badge

edit: typo

Answer 3

Just a quick comment:  Bith Nelda and John have pointed out that the person in question, Katherine Courtenay, already has a profile on Wikitree.  The source you noted is reliable, but you misinterpreted it.  This is why it's important to post on G2G about these profiles prior to creating new profiles.

As to the question asked in your headline, it's, as you mentioned, time consuming to create and properly source profiles. As a result, many profiles of children aren't created until a descendant comes along that wants to connect to the tree.  Other children had no descendants, and so may not get a profile created.

Comments

These answers have somewhat mis directed from the actual question, but thats ok. The actual Catherine that I am talking about, was the son of William Courtenay, who was the son of Sir Philip Courtenay and. Elizabeth Hungerford. There has been a lot of mixed research and crossover, as to whether or not this Catherine was the daughter of Sir Philip Courtenay, by Elizabeth Hungerford, or, spelled (Katherine) or, his Grandadughter, by his son William. I am currently doing extensive research on this. I may make a new topic for this specifically. I do understand how time consuming it is to add all individuals and that its much easier for each person to add " their people" and keep adding siblings, children, as we connect

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Our modern minds, (incl. mine!) have a tough time with this, but if you told the clerk your name was "Katherine" in a IPM and they wrote down "Catherine" neither party cared much about the spelling. 

Walter Hungerford was a very notable person who has a biography in ODNB and you will note it has high quality sources, incl. "Parliament and Politics in Late Medieval England v.2" pp 95-135, which says Philip Courtenay of Powderham was the nephew and heir of Richard Courtenay, Bishop of Norwich, the ward of Lord Hungerford, and he m. his da. Elizabeth. Their marriage was within the prohibited degrees of kinship so they received a dispensation. 

We're happy to help with extensive research - pre-1500 my suggestion is to change your strategy to history and use recent (~30 years) for many people. If you need help evaluating sources we can give you some suggestions. 

Answer 4

When connecting new profiles to existing profiles, I tend to build support for the new profile on the existing one, until I have enough sources, then copy and paste the sources in when I finally make the new profile. That, and as stated above, if the children didn't have further descendants, I often don't create a profile for them at all, but leave their sources with their parents.