Who were the parents of Judith Budd m1 John Ogden-90; m2 Francis Brown-3643?

Question

We have two profiles-- Budd-1513 and Budd-139-- that both represent Judith Budd, wife of (first) John Ogden-90 and (second) Francis Brown-3643.

We'd like to merge them, but each Judith has a different set of parents.

Which set is accurate?

Can you help?

Comments

K.Anon,,in another thread, pointed out this:

"Judith's mother's name was Katherine.  Her maternity is debated as being Katherine Butcher (Butcher-3064) or Katherine Browne (Browne-1231).  Both women are shown as married to a John Budd of Rye, Westchester, New York.  Katherine Butcher's profile contains primary source documentation.  I do not know the ultimate primary source for Katherine Browne-I see a reference to an immigration record for her husband from a secondary source (Virkus?) but haven't verified this. "

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Katherine 'Browne' has been previously been said to be the daughter of  Sir Anthony Browne (Browne-202). That was shown to be impossible .The real Katherine married a John Tregonwell and was having children with him at the time she was supposed to be giving birth to a Budd. (She also left a will that shows clearly who she was)

Then this same  Katherine Browne was linked to Sjr Anthony's son,(Anthony Maria Browne). I suspect this included a change of dates (haven't checked; think there was a merge somewhere.)  This 'marriage' was  also shown to be impossible  since once again their is good evidence that his daughter Katherine married someone else.(Tirwitt) 

There are very brief.details placed in her profile but under the heading research notes; Personally I think the research has been done . There is a lot of what I would  consider fiction dominating  the main part of her present profile. 

The source of this link to the Browne family that I found was this http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~budd/genealogy/Budde.htm

In this version; the liason between John Budd and Katherine ( d of Sir Anthony Browne ).produced a son  also John Budd in 1599. It was this 2nd  John Budd that is supposed to have married Katherine Butcher in Chichester.They had several children including Judith.

Given the fictitious nature of the Browne/Budd connection,  I think that the Butcher/Budd one will require careful research.

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Helen, thank you! But please clarify : initially you say you think the research has been done but you close with a recommendation that careful Research is required.  Can you please clarify your meaning? Thanks.

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Jillaine. I think the research has been done to disprove any connection between a John Budd and a Katherine Browne d of the aristocratic (and incidently Catholic)Browne family from Cowdray in Sussex. That part of the story is fiction but her profile still extolls her supposed  lineage. (and the Budds I don't know where that comes from )

If Ms Herron is the  source of the 'next' generation Budd/Butcher then it obviously also needs careful research.

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The marriage of John Budd and Katherine Butcher is primary sourced, as is the baptism of Judith Budd. Both Catherne and Judith are mentioned in john Budd’s 1699 Rye will. He had earlier lived in Southold, had homes in both Rye and Southold.  Inventories were taken in both Rye and Southold.

See Helen Ford’s discussion.

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Anne X, I'm confused.  It's sourced *and* false? Please clarify your meaning.

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I just looked at the source for the marriage of Katherine Browne and John Budd as listed on his profile. It's:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89062868559&view=1up&seq=255

This is an unsourced pedigree at the back of a book and I couldn't (easily) find reference to this couple in the narrative of the book, much less evidence for the relationship.

Seems like we need a better source for the marriage of John Budd and Katherine, whatever her surname was.

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There is a primary source record for the marriage of John Budd and Katherine Butcher only.  There is a primary source record for the bpt. Of Judith Budd, dau. Of John and Katherine in the registers.  This Baptism and this marriage are in Sussex Parish Registers.

In 1669 will John Budd of Rye mentioned wife Katherine, and daughter Judith.

Katherine Brown seems to be an imaginary wife of the John Budd whose will was dated 1669 in Rye.

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What is false?

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Anne, your comment prior to your editing included a reference to something being both sourced and false.

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Judith (Budd-1513) has good verifiable sources. 

Judith (Budd-139) uses (The Ogden family in America, Elizabethtown branch, and their English ...edited by Lawrence Van Alstyne, Charles Burr Ogden) - the fraudulent Ogden genealogy as a source.  Where the marriage date of Judith and John Ogden came from is a mystery. It is not sourced in the Ogden- Elizabeth town book.  The profile states Judith was born in 1622 and the source used is the 1635 baptismal date in the Sussex records.  Go figure.   It is claimed on the Judith Budd-139 profile that she died in 1690 in Rye.  That’s impossible because she and  her husband Francis Brown Were deeding property to her Og‭den children until 1707.  So Judith was still alive in 1707.   She was not dead in 1690 and buried in Rye as this profile extolls.  Findagrave memorial  195548630, creator B.C. has her buried as Judith Ogden.  I’ve been to the cemetery on what was the original John Budd’s Rye  property.  No extant Judith Ogden stone.  No records have been found to attest to a Judith Ogden dying in 1690. 

This FAG needs corrections.

Added: 24 Dec 2018

• Find A Grave Memorial 195548630 Created by: B.C.

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The burial place and year of death  for Anthony Maria  Browne is also incorrect   ( he was buried in the vault under the family chapel at Midhurst  in 1629).  There was a plain Anthony son of Anthony  Browne ( so quite probably a child )  buried at St Brides in 1646.

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Thanks, Helen. Source, please?

Answer 1

The only birth in England about then on findmypast 

Judith

Last name Budd

Gender Female

Birth year -

Birth place -

Baptism year 1619

Baptism date 05 Mar 1619

Place Medstead

County Hampshire

Country England

Father's first name(s) John

Father's last name Budd

Mother's first name(s) Marie

Mother's last name -

Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975

Category Life Events (BDMs)

Subcategory Parish Baptisms

Collections from England, Great Britain

Answer 2

I'm more interested in knowing who their grandchild was.  Son John had a daughter Rachel, b 1705.  There also was a Thomas (relationship unknown) who had a daughter Rachel born 1708.  One of these women married Thomas Purdy and was the mother of 3 loyalist brothers, Gabriel, Stephen and Jesse.  

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ogden-895

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Ogden-3604

Right now Stephen is connected to one, Jesse to the other but they are brothers. 

Answer 3

I stumbled upon what looks to be a very well sourced article from NYGBR 146:1 (2015) on John Ogden of Rye. In it the author says that John married ca 1661, Judith Budd who was born about 1640. The author says that Judith's parents were John and Katherine (Brown) Budd of Southold and Rye. He cites John Budd's will, dated Oct 15, 1669 at Rye, which left legacies to his three children including John Ogden and Judith his wife. The author cites numerous other sources in his article as well, but on initial review, I do not see anything further regarding Katherine Brown's origins.

The author refutes some of Baird's work on the Ogden family, and says that John was "possibly" a brother of Richard Ogden of Stamford, Hempstead and Fairfield, likely born about 1640, place unknown, and died in Rye, New York before 1683 when Judith remarried. He refutes that he is a son of Richard Ogden of Fairfield as claimed by Baird.

Comments

SW,

Yes, we've seen a slew of published genealogies that repeat the Katherine Brown maiden name, but none of them offer evidence for it. It sounds like this particular article was more focused on the Ogden relationships. Southhold and Rye were the post migration locations of the family. Judith Budd's baptism has since been located by Anne Winters in the Felsham parish records, not far from Chichester, Sussex, where her parents married and baptized other children.