Leigh line needs some pruning and clean up - a good bit pre-1500

+8 votes
529 views

This seems like a reasonable starting point to introduce some validated data.

According to Wikipedia (Roger Leigh's son Sir Thomas Leigh Lord Mayor of London's entry): Sir Thomas Leigh's father was Roger who died in 1506. This Roger's daughter in law would be Anne Trafford (not Alice). 

This Roger's grandfather (if I'm doing the calculation correctly) would be Sir Piers Leigh (ca. 1389-16 Jun 1422), who appears not to be connected.

Candidate fathers for this Roger then would be:
: Piers Leigh (III - ca. 1415-1478) - son of Sir Piers Leigh II

I've done some disconnecting and reconnecting downstream, but it appears that a duplicate Alice Barker may be in the mix (I created her substantiated husband Sir Thomas Leigh Lord Mayor of London - not coming up in ANY searches on WikiTree), because I was piecing together their daughter, Catherine Leigh's connection, and I found another mythological Richard as her spouse - perhaps of FABpedigree origins, too?). 

I managed to also find the Wikipedia mention of the Leigh connection to Jane Austen, in the process, but the dates, connections and sources may need validation:

  • Jane Austen, daughter of Rev George Austen and Cassandra Leigh
  • Cassandra Leigh, daughter of Rev Dr Thomas Leigh
  • Rev Dr Thomas Leigh, son of Theophilus Leigh
  • Theophilus Leigh, son of William Leigh (ca. 1604-1690) and Joanna Pury/Perry
  • William Leigh, son of William Leigh (ca. 1585-1632) and Elizabeth Whorwood 
  • William Leigh (ca. 1585-1632) son of Rowland Leigh 
  • Rowland Leigh, son of Sir Thomas Leigh Lord Mayor of London

The pre-1500 profiles I am unable to address. If someone could volunteer for that and if you have a penchant for connecting... If not, just let me know which post-1500 profiles to start with the disentanglement and alignments.
THANKS

WikiTree profile: Roger Leigh
in Genealogy Help by Porter Fann G2G6 Mach 9 (97.7k points)
reopened by Porter Fann

PS: The note from Wikipedia that got me digging for Sir Thomas Leigh:
 

In 1593 he married Catherine Leigh, daughter of Sir Thomas Leigh of Stoneleigh Abbey in Warwickshire.

3 Answers

+9 votes
 
Best answer
Hi Fann thanks for your research into this family but I think there is something a bit odd about the dates of Catherine Leigh who married Robert Catesby. If the marriage took place in 1593 and Robert Catesby is under 21, then it seems more likely that Catherine would also be  under that age, but Thomas Leigh, Lord Mayor of !ondon died in 1571.

Personally I think Wikipedia has made a mistake and Sir Thomas Leigh of Stonehouse Abbey, Warwickshire is the son of Thomas Leigh, the Lord Mayor and Catherine the Mayors granddaughter.

Which means there would be two Catherine Leigh's, one the daughter of Thomas Leigh, Lord Mayor of London, who married Edward Baber, and the other his granddaughter who married Robert Catesby. That would fit better chronologically, but we probably need to find some better sources first.

Speaking of which, Wilkipedia articles aren't always the best sources for genealogy, particularly for pre-1500 or even pre-1700 profiles, so I would be reluctant to connect up the Piers Leigh profiles without some more research and better sources.
by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (626k points)
selected by Porter Fann

Wikipedia can be dodgy, but it can also be updated. One thing that I failed to do in this instance was to doublecheck their sourcing (not always present - if none at all were present, I would have thought twice before thinking about using it).

Part of what also happened was that I too misinterpreted that the Katherine Leigh (as Lundy describes her) was a daughter of the Lord Mayor, whereas; you are correct, she's the daughter of the 1st Bt, also named Sir Thomas. The Wikipedia narrative on the Robert Catesby page about the origins of his spouse Catherine was very misleading, but has been updated, and soft-sourced with Lundy.

I am aligning everything that was affected in the immediate family constellation. It definitely makes more sense, now. From the WikiTree profile history on Thomas Leigh 1st Bt, it's odd that they cite Lundy's The Peerage, but did not do anything with Katherine (not even naming her in the bio). Perhaps because no dates are shown in "The Peerage" to ease the creation of a profile? The WikiTree 1st Bt profile was originated by a Crockett-related GEDCOM on 9 May 2011; whereas, the 1st Bt profile by Lundy was last edited 11 Jul 2018.

I will double up the efforts to carefully source a reconnection and placement of Sir Thomas, Lord Mayor with his ancestors who are out of my certification reach.

Thanks for finding the alignment error, which was crucial.

It took a whole lot of effort to disconnect one Richard Leigh - who was attached to all of Sir Thomas, Lord Mayor of London's, children. Not sure of those origins, but once it was done, a marriage did emerge for him (Richard Leigh). (Funny how sometimes relationships emerge and disappear in WikiTree when connections to spouses or parent/s are amiss, or vary depending upon which descendant is being viewed).

ThePeerage.com is citing Burke's 2003 for the parents of Roger, but Mosley has been trawling the internet for popular junk.

Roger's father was apparently Richard Leigh of Rushall, Staffs, near Walsall.  So far so good.

But Roger's alleged mother Margery Sprenchose is on page 319 here

https://archive.org/stream/visitationshrop01britgoog#page/n44/

married to a different Richard Lee in a totally different family (this one is Roger's father on WikiTree).

Yes, the line of this Roger previously had an incorrectly attributed spousal relationship between Ann Barker and this Roger's putative son Richard (near contemporary), with that being unjustified and not even supported in the narratives of the children (where it's clearly stated Thomas Leigh and Ann Barker were the parents): an apparent amalgamation of cobbled together family tree junk data or the result of a bad de-duplication, perhaps (?).

So, I will close this query, here, and see what I can do with the leads that you have provided and the others that I have started vetting with the brand new, precise Sir Thomas Leigh, Lord May of London (d. 1571), son of a Roger (d. 1506).

Hopefully, someone with some stamina can sort out the upstream and downstream problems with this Roger's line where this comment is posted. Many of the profiles, in this upstream, especially, are unsubstantiated, and appear to mostly have come from Ancestry or other tree based imports or copying, with a marginal source thrown in here and there.

I looked a little closer at your reply, and maybe this line should now stay as an open query.

This line has some reasons to see what we can clarify. Let me see if I can find anything to substantiate father Roger who supposedly died in 1506... who, if I am understanding correctly, to sum up, might be the son of Richard Leigh of Rushall in Staffordshire and Margery Sprenchose or else a son of Margery Sprenchose and Richard Lee. 

If it is the latter case, then that would make Sir Thomas "Leigh," LMoL the brother of the Richard and what would need to be sorted is the true identity and origins of the Roger of present.

I perused the Wikipedia page on the Leghs of Lyme and could not find an obvious connection for Sir Thomas' 2nd great-grandfather. The ones on WikiTree seem to have a few breakdowns in descendance at the moment.

I was saying that the Lord Mayor has no connection with Margery Sprenchose or the Shropshire Lee family that she married into.

Roger's current parents on WikiTree were a couple, but Roger wasn't their son.

Roger's parents on ThePeerage.com weren't even a couple.

Hopefully, what I said about Roger, father of Sir Thomas Leigh, LMoL, is correct in the other post? I'm having a hard time sorting this out.

Well the current Lord Leigh is a descendant of the Lord Mayor and has a middle name Piers, and so did his father.  But I can't see where else any descendant of the Lord Mayor was called Piers, so it doesn't look like the Agincourt thing was a big family tradition.

Burke's Commoners (1836) has a long article on Chandos Leigh, before he was a Baron.  He was a great-grandson of Theophilus I, so a 2nd cousin of Jane Austen.

https://archive.org/stream/genealogicalhera03burk#page/223/

The article runs through all the main lines of descent from the Lord Mayor.  Mentions Agincourt in a footnote.

Part of this article is what is recycled in Extinct Baronets (1841).  The Stoneleigh baronets aren't covered in earlier baronetage books, because they became barons, so they were left to the peerage books.  And they disappeared from the peerage books when they became extinct in 1786.

It's quite likely that Burke's got it from an old Collins Peerage, but only bits of those seem to be online.  Collins mostly got his info from the families, unless they were unresponsive, in which case he had to resort to research, but not in primary sources.  His books were pro-aristo propaganda, so he wasn't the man to disagree with anything Their Lordships told him.

A long pedigree compiled by somebody has found its way into this so-called "Visitation of Cheshire" manuscript

https://archive.org/details/visitationofches00glov/page/154

according to which the Lord Mayor was the great-grandson of John Legh of the Ridge, who married the heiress Alice Alcock.

This John is then hooked up as the son of Piers I by a 2nd wife, Cicely del Hagh.  But that can't be right - Piers I's first wife Margaret Danyers outlived him.

The best account is this history of Prestbury by Frank Renaud

https://archive.org/stream/contributionsto00renagoog#page/n167/

According to which, there was a brass in Macclesfield church which said Piers II died with Henry V in Paris, and an obscure alternative version that said he was killed at Agincourt.  People have tried to have it both ways by saying he died of his wounds.  But it's quite possible he died of dysentery, like the king and hundreds of others.  Bravery was drinking the water.

Page 154 goes through the theories about the origins of John Legh of the Ridge

https://archive.org/stream/contributionsto00renagoog#page/n192/

Apparently it was Dugdale who said John was the grandson of the first Piers Legh of Lyme, which could make him the son of Piers II and support Burke.

Renaud is adamant that John was the brother of Piers I.  He proves that Maud Norley had a younger son called John, though I don't see where he proves this is the same man who was escheator of Cheshire in 1453, when he would have been at least 83, as Maud Norley's husband Robert Legh of Adlington died in 1370.

Renaud then contradicts the Vis Cheshire chart again by saying that the Leighs of Stoneleigh (ie the Lord Mayor) descend from Roger of the Ridge d 1506, son of Roger d 1448, son of John, not from his cousin Roger of Wellington, son of Richard of Rushall, son of John.

Which gives us a choice of two Rogers for the Lord Mayor's father.

For what it's worth, this "1568 Visitation" pedigree says the Lord Mayor's mother was a Trafford

https://archive.org/stream/visitationoflond00cook#page/10/

But it also mentions 1610.  The explanation is that this is a copy made by Nicholas Charles (d 1613) with his own additions, in the same handwriting, so we can't tell how much is original evidence.

That is an astounding analysis. I'll work it up into an unknown origins statement on LMoL's profile, but I may have one more follow up query.

A huge thanks of gratitude for this professional review that appears exhaustive. Objectivity is sometimes hard to tease out, but your grasp of where to look really shines through.

The majority of your reply belongs on the LMoL's profile query, but I can address that later.

I have to ask whether his grandson-in-law's activity in the Gunpowder Plot might have affected the College of Arms' interest or willingness to address (or obscure) his heritage in Visitations?

Just added to the sourcing for Sir Thomas Leigh - primarily about his wife. An interesting but obscure lead has emerged. . .

+5 votes

This doesn't provide many leads on ancestors, except in a general sense, but does confirm Sir Thomas Leigh as a son of Roger Leigh of Wellington in Shropshire, who was "descended from an ancient family settled before the conquest at High Leigh in Cheshire:"

Leigh, Thomas (1504?-1571) DNB00 in Wikisource. 11 Jan 2013. Retrieved 12 Mar 2020.

by Porter Fann G2G6 Mach 9 (97.7k points)
+5 votes

His father is shown as Roger Leigh of Walington (son of Richhard Leigh of Walington in Shropshire younger son of John Leigh of Ridg 2 sone to Sr Peirs Leigh of ye Lime in Cheshire):

Camden, William; Fetherston, John. The Visitation of the county of Warwick in the year 1619. Taken by William Camden, Clarenceaux king of arms. 1877, p. 81. Great Britain: College of Arms.

by Porter Fann G2G6 Mach 9 (97.7k points)
That source says "Sir Tho Leigh son of Will'm Leigh of Walington and daughter of Trafford. William Leigh son of Roger Leigh, son of Rich, son of John, son of Piers"

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