Does joining a modern day "Clan Society" make you a member of that named Clan?

+3 votes
2.8k views
Some wikitree members are claiming to be members of a scottish clan purely because of membership of a clan society. Is this allowable or rather is it right?
in The Tree House by Allan Stuart G2G6 Mach 2 (28.0k points)
edited by Allan Stuart

4 Answers

+5 votes
 
Best answer
Joining a modern-day Clan Society makes that person a member of the Clan Society, as distinct from being a member of the Clan.
by Rory Cain G2G6 Mach 1 (12.1k points)
selected by Andrew Ross
Thank you Rory my view exactly and thanks to Jeff for selecting it as best answer.
One should also note that the ultimate authority on all things related to clans, the Court of the Lord Lyon, granted several clan societies their own coats of arms. The rationale being that these groups comprise an indeterminate cadet and the court has intervened in cases where a chief has failed to permit the use of a clan symbols. The effect is that a person may claim membership of a clan unless expressly forbidden to do so by the clan chief who must have very good reason for blocking the individual.
Hi Bill, What is the situation when there is no recognised clan chief?
That is a very interesting question, Allan. A Clan which does not have a chief recognised by the Lord Lyon has no legal status in Scotland. In such a case (and there are many clans in that state) there is no-one who can act on the clan's behalf in any official capacity. The head of the clan is where actual bloodlines and inheritance come into play, I expect most armigerous clans became so through the ancestral line dying off or emigration leaving nobody to claim the right to carry the undifferenced arms.

It is my understanding that, where there is an interest in creating a chief, a process exists which entails holding a meeting of those with the strongest family connection to the original ancestor to appoint a clan commander who can become a chief after 10 years. The procedure must be witnessed by the Court of the Lord Lyon in order to have legal validity.
True enough, the chiefship was decided by the clan in former days, but things tend to change once courts and lawyers get involved. In the case of the Mackinnon chiefship, the Court of Lord Lyon decided against Mackinnon if Mishnish on account of Mishnish’s pecuniosity. There are as never a means test back when the clan decided such matters. Except that the wealthier claimant had obvious advantages.

When Sir Neil Menzies, Baronet and Chief, died in 1920, my Menzies relations were send letters from lawyers inviting them to claim the estate. A successful claim to the physical estate would deliver the chiefship also. Let’s not kid ourselves that the lawyers motives were altruistic. Obviously they hoped to make money. They had already invested money in tracing the descendants of the Menzies chiefs through the Lairds of Comrie, who were disposed at the “Glorious Revolution”, removed from Glenlyon by the Campbells, relocated to Mull under the protection of the Macleans, and emigrated to Australia. To trace potential claimants that far was quite a financial investment, so one can only ponder how much the lawyers hoped to make out if it, and how expensive it really is to claim a dormant chiefship.

Given that it’s an “all or nothing” situation each time a chief dies and a replacement succeeds, the successor gets it all and the losers get nothing. Descendants of the losers are not likely to have the wealth from which to finance a claim for the chiefship.

Amongst my Menzies relations, Captain Duncan Menzies JP LLB was always the most likely, as not only the wealthiest but also a barrister. He chose to pass it up, being busy in his career and not the gambling type. In the end, it went to the wealthiest claimant, Steuart-Menzies of Culdares, paternally a Stewart of Cardney. His Menzies descent was through the female line.

So the clincher wasn’t primogeniture, legitimacy, or who the clan chose, it essentially came down to wealth. One had to have enough of it to sustain one’s claim.
My thought when reviewing the procedure was that the involvement of the court could make it prohibitively expensive. Your account seems to support the idea that many remain unclaimed because the cost outweighs any real benefit.
+5 votes
They can claim clan membership the have the surname of the clan chief or an associated clan name recognized by same or descend from someone with one of those surnames. So, essentially, yes, they can claim clan membership.
by Deb Durham G2G Astronaut (1.1m points)
Thank you Deb but the question was for "purely because of membership of a society". i.e would it be right for a Mr Schicklegruber to claim Clan Membership because he is a member of the McDonald Clan Society?

Well, there would be little point in joining a clan society if you had no connection to the clan. American Clan Societies generally maintain close ties to the clan chiefs and clans in Scotland. If they descend from a family with clan membership they have clan membership. My LNAB is Lewis and was taken from my step-great-grandfather, my real great-grandfather's name was Borquez. But wait, my great-grandmother was an Archibald and the Archibalds are members of Clan MacPherson. I am a member of clan MacPherson by virtue of my descent from Agnes Kinghorn Archibald who was born in Scotland. 

What I am trying to say is that you claim clan membership whether you belong to a society or not. You are a member of the clan first and then join the society. That doesn't mean you are claiming clan membership because you joined the society. It means you joined the society because you are claiming clan membership.

I agree with you it is your name or you are descended from someone with that name that counts however this still does not answer my question,

So, if one has forebears from more than one family name (rather than use clan, even though my Mother always did), how does one know, or choose, which way to go?

My 2Xgreat-grandfather was a Gordon.  My 3Xgreat-grandfather was a McCrea.  (And the McCrea was father-in-law to the Gordon twice over.)

My Mother always claimed she was both a Gordon and a McCrea.  You cannot truly belong to more than one at the same time, because you cannot truly split allegiance (even if such doesn't mean what it used to mean 100, 200, 300 and more years ago).

I have always felt a strong draw to my far northern forebears .. and some of those are Scandinavian, not just Scottish.  (Considering I'm from Down Under .. "far northern" really IS far and northern!)

(I read a thread here about "traditional Scottish naming patterns" but don't see it in my lot.  It sure would've made some things easier!)

Traditionally you were of the clan of your father. A single woman would be of her fathers clan. When a woman married she would adopt the clan of her husband. Sometimes it would benefit the husband to adopt his wifes clan name (for financial reasons or because her clan was larger or more influential than his). Complicated is it not ? but also simple if followed correctly.
+3 votes

Traditionally, any person or group choosing to follow a particular clan chief was considered to be a part of that clan. While family ties played a very large part, it was not necessary. In this sense anyone who has joined a clan society is, in fact, a member of that clan. However, I would not expect to see them follow their chief into battle smiley

by Living McCormick G2G6 Mach 6 (60.1k points)
That's only partly true. The clan chief had to accept the pledge of support/loyalty. Ultimately, it is the chief who decides which families belong to his clan.
A Clan Society is not a Clan. If you join a clan society you are a member of that society, you are not a member of the clan they follow unless you meet other criteria. As Deb says it is the clan chief who ultimately decides which none family members can join the clan.

I do believe you are picking nits here, Allan. wink I suppose technically that joining a society does not make you a member of a clan and claiming membership based on that would be wrong. However, I think it would be extremely odd for someone completely unassociated with any of a particular clan’s families to join a society for the sole purpose of claiming clan membership. What would be the point? Where have you seen someone who joined a society and subsequently claimed membership in the clan when they weren’t actually descended from any associated family?

True, but more often than not, that approval was tacit and denial was carried out through a formal denunciation and expulsion.
Believe me I have come across Profile Managers claiming clan membership because their society says they are Clan Members not Clan Society Members.

My original question has been answered and Deb sometimes nits have to be removed.
+4 votes
Well, I can speak for the Clan Donald USA. If you join the Clan Donald USA and pay the dues you are a member of the Clan Donald. There are requirements for joining. Normally anybody named McDonald or McDaniel or similar can join if they got the name by heredity or adoption or marriage (not a voluntary name change, but nobody checks.).  There is a gigantic list of other names that are eligible if they can show their family came from certain small geographic locations. The people who decide this are quite picky.

There are other ways. If one of the chiefs or chieftains says you are eligible, so be it. If you have one of the names on the list that are frequently male line descendants of the clan founder Somerled (like McEacharn or McAlister or Alexander) and can't show you come from the requisite place but I personally verify this lineage by DNA, I can usually get you in.

Of course the main reason for joining is as a social organization, and also gets you on our mailing list that asks for money to pay for the things the Clan does, like pay for scholarships to teenagers to study Highland Scots history or to buy back and preserve lands and artifacts that were Clan owned 'back in the day'. The Land Trust is getting quite successful. Its not like in the good old days!
by James McDonald G2G6 Mach 1 (11.7k points)
We live in the 21st century. Not too many broken men swear fealty to a Chief these days. Clan is a Scottish birthright, predominately passed down the male line. Clan societies are dues-paying clubs. The former has existed for over a thousand years, the latter less than one hundred.

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