Is this adequate sourcing for Calcott Chambre (c.1602 - 1638)?

Question

I am after some advice regarding a profile I would like to create and the available sources.

I would like to create Calcott Chambre (c.1602 - 1638), to fill a gap as he was son of Calcott Chambre https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Chambre-35 and father of Mary https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Chambre-52.  Note many members of this family were called Calcott - including multiple brothers with the same parents - so I am trying to be sure I have the right data.

I have not found any primary sources for birth, marriage or death.  What I have is:

For birth he is listed in Alumni Oxoniensis https://archive.org/details/b24873275_0001/page/258/mode/2up.  This volume lists two 'Chambre, Calcot of Oxon'.  The first seems to be clearly the father of the one I am looking for, and the second entry is listed as son of the first, with an age of 19 in 1621, or birth year of 1602.  The only issue with this source is that it suggests the younger Calcott was the MP, when other sources make it clear that it was the father.

When the father died in 1636, the younger Calcott was named as executor and was awarded probate.

The profile of the father has a statement that the son died 17 Sep 1638, but is unsourced and appears to be taken from the unsourced Burke.

There is an abstract of his will available in the Treasury of Ireland https://www.virtualtreasury.ie/item/PRONI-T808-2952 image 80.  In this abstract created by a historian/genealogist named Tenison Groves (so not a trusted source) he describes a will dated 7 Aug 1638 and proved 19 August 1640, which could agree with the 17 Sep 1638 date.  In the will there is a particular clause leaving 1/2 of his lands in Wicklowe to his wife Mary Chambre for her life and 1/2 to his wife for 12 years from 1 May 1638 in trust for their daughter Mary Chambre and any others which may be born.  It lists overseers and witnesses.

However

There is a probate copy of a will in The National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D772790 PROB 11/224/561.  This appears to be the same will as in the abstract except for the dates.  The will is dated 7 Aug 1648, and probate granted 1652.  All of the details - legacies, overseers and witnesses - are the same as in the abstract, and the clause which starts 1 May 1638 for 12 years is also present, which does not seem relevant if the will was written in 1648.

The Index to the Prerogative Wills for Ireland lists three entries for Calcott Chambre in 1635, 1638 and (for Calcott Chambre jun) in 1640.https://archive.org/details/indextoprerogati00vica/page/84/mode/2up

Is it possible that there is some kind of transcription error between the will getting probate in Ireland and the record being copied to England?  Would the original will, or an original probate copy, still be in the records in Ireland?

Do you think if I include my comments above as research notes that there is sufficient source (alumni record, executor of father's will, own will) to add this profile with estimated birth and death dates?

Comments

I would say that Tenison Groves is a trusted source, the Virtual Treasury includes many of his abstracts.

The Virtual Treasury also has more Calcott Chambre at https://www.virtualtreasury.ie/item/Killruddery-BM-A-3-3-2 and at https://www.virtualtreasury.ie/item/NAI-Lodge-6-502

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Also try Page 66 at https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000529891

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Thank you.  That helps to confirm the lineage that I am trying to create

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A few more Calcott Chambres in the 1641 Depositions: https://1641.tcd.ie/index.php/deposition/?depID=811174r125, https://1641.tcd.ie/index.php/deposition/?depID=811118r085,  and https://1641.tcd.ie/index.php/deposition/?depID=815277r352x

Answer 1

The PCC copy at the link you gave is dated 7 August 1638, with the witnesses, the same as the abstract from Ireland.  The image quality is not good enough to be certain of the date with the 'hand and seal'

The original will have been lost in the fire of 1922, but the notarised copy transmitted to London may be at the UK National Archives among the original wills in series PROB 10. These are not online, or catalogued in any detail. See the section Original Prerogative Court of Canterbury wills, 1484-1858 on this page: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/wills-or-administrations-before-1858/

Comments

Can you help me understand your comment?  I downloaded the document at the link I gave.and I see I could have misread the line at the bottom where the date following the word Superscripto looks like 1650 but could be my misreading of 1638.  I also note that before the start of the will it states that it was taken from Dublin in 1640.

But half way down the second page seems to be a date that more clearly looks like 1648 and the probate statement says in words one thousand six hundred fifty and two.

Am I misreading these?

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I'm confident the date above the witnesses on line 29 of the page is 1638. The final digit is clearly 8 not 0. The year in the date after 'hand and seal' on the 14th line of the page in the copy on TNA is not fully readable, but on Ancestry the image is clearer and it is 1648. I think this must be a copying error, either by the PCC clerks or the PCI clerks. The process would have been:

7 August 1638: will written and witnessed

19 August 1640: probate in PCI, Dublin. The original will is filed, a register copy is made and a probate copy issued to the executrix. (Both the original and the register copy would be destroyed in 1922.)

1640: 'A True Copie' is made from the register copy at PCI. This is likely to be the executrix's copy above, but could possibly be another one.

Sometime later the family discover they need probate in England in order to have rights over property there.

1652: The copy is presented in London for probate. The 'true copie' is filed (and might survive in PROB10), a register copy is made (which is what we have images of) and a probate copy is issued to the executrix.

Somewhere in the copying 1648 is subsituted for 1638. I suspect this would be in London, where the error for a more recent date is easier to make, and less likely to have been spotted in the checking, compared to a future date when copied in Dublin.

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Many thanks, that makes sense

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You might also be interested in this chancery case which would appear to be about the same will

Reference:	C 7/441/132
Description:	Short title: Temple v Earl of Strafford. Plaintiffs: Alexander Temple and Mary Temple his wife. Defendants: William [Wentworth] Earl of Strafford. Place or subject: estate of Calcott Chambre, Wicklow, Dublin, Wexford and Carlow, Ireland. Document type: bill and demurrer
Date:	1657

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5364881

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And I just found something that explains the complex issues regarding these wills, suggesting the will was hidden and discovered in 1640 and numerous legal actions were involved regarding the property.  https://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-state-papers/domestic/chas2/1675-6/pp93-146  May 5

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That's quite a saga! And the 1638 PCI calendar entry turns out to be for the same man, but for the fake noncupative will. The 1635 entry is presumably for his father, the MP.

Anyhow, you have plenty to make a good profile with.

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And here is his wife's third husband.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Eyre_(leveller).  I think I have enough to add some profiles