Catholic baptisms in Dublin without Catholic churches?

+9 votes
222 views
Hello,

I'm hoping someone can help answer this question about 18th-century Dublin churches - first from a purely historical perspective, and then perhaps with a focus on how Roman Catholic profiles should be categorized.

I recently discovered that the Dublin Catholic Churches "St. Catherine" and "St. Michan" were not actually built until late in the 18th century (1782 and 1810). Before that, it seems that Catholic priests performed baptisms sort of "unofficially" in churches and/or chapels which were all officially Church of England/Ireland (since Henry VIII and the Reformation).

The baptism records in irishgenealogy.ie appear to refer to the Roman Catholic church parishes, and I have been working on the assumption that family groups would probably have most of their records in the same parish - and have been categorizing the profiles accordingly.

Can anyone shed light on the history? Where did Catholic baptisms take place before the non-Church of Ireland churches were built?

Should profiles created on the basis of such RC baptisms be categorized with the Roman Catholic parish in Dublin?
WikiTree profile: Andrew Egan
in Genealogy Help by GM Garrettson G2G6 Mach 3 (34.8k points)
Sally X may be a good person to talk to about this. I have emailed her and alerted her to this thread.
Thanks, David!
My Irish ancestors are mostly in the early 19th century and have baptism records from local Catholic churches.

The Catholic churches as in buildings and parishes existed for a long time before before any English involvement in Ireland.

Though many of my English Catholic ancestors born in the mid to late 1700s were baptised in clandestine events, I have found records for those baptisms in old records found under the name of the priest.

I found the records by Google search for Roman Catholic baptisms in this area, these years.
Thanks M Ross - I guess I'm displaying my ignorance of this bit of Irish history - I hadn't realized that Catholism had been suppressed for so long - even in Dublin. I have spent some time reading about the Troubles in Northern Ireland, but somehow this wasn't on my radar. Ooops!

I'm actually finding lots of records on irishgenealogy.ie which identify the Roman Catholic church with the baptism or marriage (e.g. St. Catherine or St. Michan) - and trying to sort them out so I can distinguish between the myriad individuals sharing the same name (like Andrew Egan's parents). So when I found one "Thomas and Catherine Egan" at St. Catherine, and another at St. Michan, both in the mid-1700s, I was wondering whether that difference was enough to conclude that they were different people. (To match or not to match, that is the question...). So I checked out the wikipedia articles on the churches mentioned in irishgenealogy.ie, and was surprised to find out that they hadn't been built yet - the (originally Catholic) parish churches had been taken over by the Church of Ireland, and there were apparently no dedicated churches for Catholic services at that time.

If Catholics were more or less "clandestine" at that time, would people move between the various Dublin priests and/or parishes more freely from one year to the next? Or did it make it especially important to distinguish between parishes? How likely would it have been for the same couple to baptise one child at "St. Catherine" and the next at "St. Michan"?
I don't know the answers to your questions.

I'm sure there are WT members who are far more familiar with Catholic history in Ireland than I am.

I have one suggestion, Ireland Reaching Out is a free volunteer based website run by several Irish history academics.

You can post questions on their website whether about specific individuals or more general questions. Responses can take a few days. I have found them very helpful, as academics they usually have knowledge of information and access to records that are not available online.

4 Answers

+9 votes
The RC parish categories are created to identify the location of a fairly large area within a Catholic diocese or archdiocese.  They do not equated to a single physical building. The parishes are the responsibility of a particular bishop or archbishop. The documents of the bishop or archbishop may contain clues about the details of a parish. Perhaps "History of the Catholic Diocese of Dublin"  by Kelly, James & Daire Keogh is of interest.
by Sally x G2G6 Mach 5 (52.0k points)
What areas do the categories for the RC parishes of St. Michan and St. Catherine identify before the 1780s?
I imagine the areas for RC parishes in Dublin city in the early centuries did not change boundaries.  Identification of the parish priests could provide information.

 There are 23 Civil Parishes in Dublin city and only 11 RC parishes identified "A New Genealogical Atlas of Ireland" 2nd edition by Brian Mitchell.

You can set up your own Personal Categories to list profiles as you need to help sort them. see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Personal_Categories
+7 votes
Very often, before an actual church is built, there are priests who go around as missionnaries and perform the rites needed, and record them somewhere.  Later collection of these records may be simply grouping them by where it says they were done.  In this province (Québec), we have lots of missions established before there was an actual parish established, the location of birth is denoted by the records, whether it was a mission or established church.  Hope this helps figure out things for you.
by Danielle Liard G2G6 Pilot (677k points)
+6 votes
I will make a few observations, which may or may not be of any assistance to those thinking about creating WikiTree categories.

The division of Ireland into parishes long pre-dates the Reformation, and pre-dates the building of almost all present-day churches.

The Catholic and Anglican Churches have revised the pre-Reformation parish boundaries independently over the centuries due to population movements and other factors, so that the present-day parish boundaries used by the two denominations can be quite different, even though the parishes retain their mediaeval names.

Churches built in more modern times generally replaced older churches, sometimes on the same site, or sometimes on nearby sites.

Pre-reformation churches are more likely to have fallen into the hands of what now describes itself as the Anglican Church, necessitating the building of replacement churches by the Catholic community.  The penal laws up to Catholic emancipation in 1829 made church-building difficult for Catholics.

Most rural parishes have multiple churches dedicated to different saints, due to their large area.  Some city parishes may also have multiple churches, due to their large population, but that usually ends up in the division of the original parish into two or more smaller parishes.

As in the USA and other jurisdictions, in city parishes with a single church, both the church and the parish may be dedicated to a single saint.  In such cases, even the civil parish may be known as, for example, "St. Catherine's".

The names of rural parishes are often anglicised to something like "Kilcatherine", meaning "church of Catherine", but such names generally long predate any church buildings still in use today.

The older inner city parishes like St. Michan's in Dublin are generally not subdivided into townlands as rural parishes invariably are.

The original Church of Ireland was absorbed into the United Church of England and Ireland under the 1800 Act of Union.  The present Church of Ireland was created by the 1869 Irish Church Act.

As always, trying to fit institutions which have evolved over centuries into static WikiTree categories can be challenging.
by Paddy Waldron G2G6 Mach 6 (62.6k points)
Thanks very much, Paddy! Very interesting reading!
+7 votes

Here is some information which may be relevant and interesting. Having read the question earlier, I spoke to my 92 year old father later today about this subject of Catholic baptisms in Ireland during the penal laws (anti-Catholic laws) and we both agreed that many of them were probably carried out in private settings and not documented, especially with lower classes of people. He provided me with the text below which he copied word-for-word years ago during a visit to St Michan's church. This text was displayed at the entrance to the church. I am not sure if this text is still on display at the church. I have highlighted in bold a section relevant to the subject of baptisms. 

St MICHAN AND THE CHURCHES DEDICATED TO HIM
 

(Copy of a document found under the altar of St Michan’s Church, Halston St. when it was being renovated c. 1990. It presumably dates from the foundation of the church in the late 18th century. It outlines the story of St Michan and of the churches and religious houses established in the area.)
 

Who St Michan was, has, until recently, been a mystery to ecclesiastical historians. The old Irish name (Glasmocanogue) of the street now called Constitution Hill, gives a clue to the mystery. Glasmacanogue is the boundary stream of the district that was under the spiritual care of Saint MoChanóg, namely St Michan. 

He was the eldest son of the prince of Brecknock in Wales and lived in the fifth century. He founded the cill or church of Cill mo Chanóg (now Kilmacanoge in Co Wicklow) and his brother -- Mocaróg founded the cill in Delgany. It seems that, having founded the cill in Kilmacanoge, he then came to Dublin and set up a hostel in the Stoneybatter area. St Michan is mentioned in “A Calendar of Irish Saints” as Michan of Cill Michan in Atha Cliath (Michan of the Church of Michan in Dublin) and his feast is 25th August. In fact, his father, the prince of Brecknock in Wales, was said to have been an Irishman. After Michan set up his cill in Dublin, he returned to his native Wales and was slain in 496.

Michan’s cill or religious house continued for several centuries and in 1096 the foundation of the Cathedral of St Michan was laid by the then bishop. The church remained a cathedral for only a short time – until Christchurch became the cathedral in 1121. Archbishop Laurence O’Toole (1161) introduced Regular Canons into the cathedral to live in communities. In support of the Canons he granted various churches, with their tithes, among which was St Michan’s (1178).

The Protestant government took over the Church of St Michan (in Church St.) in 1540 and the Catholic priests had to find new ways of providing the sacraments to their faithful. They had to resort to the back streets for those purposes. St Michan’s mass-house was in a back room of a house and became the first parish chapel recorded in penal times. The sacraments continued to be available to the people of the area through the penal times and limited Catholic education was provided for boys and girls. Teresa Mullaly founded Georges Hill where the Presentation Sisters continue their work to this day.

In 1704, the old building at the corner of Bull Lane was transformed into a chapel. The Novena of Grace in honour of St Francis Xavier was started in this chapel by the Jesuits in 1712.

The Irish name for Michan is Mo-Chan-Óg; the Mo (my) and Óg (little) usually added to saints’ names as terms of affection and Can was the surname. In Welsh, the Mo is rendered My and so, in the name Michan we have the Welsh pronunciation of My Can.

Note added by S.O’Connor: The derivation of “Michan” would seem to be more complicated than suggested here. The Welsh equivalent of the Irish mo is fy, which is pronounced vo, the vowel sound being exactly the same as that in the Irish mo. The adjustment of the name would, therefore, seem to have resulted from a misconception as to how the vowel sound y is pronounced in Welsh.

by Fionnuala O'Connor G2G6 Mach 2 (24.9k points)
Thanks very much for this fascinating information, Fionnuala! Please let your father know that his preservation of this story was GREATLY appreaciated by the son of another 92-year-old (who will celebrate 93 end of January, God willing) who passed his "genealogy bug" on to the next generation.

Go raith maith agat!

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