Category Infobox Cemetery - more sorting parameters, please

Question

For cemeteries in Québec (and probably also those in France), the categories start with "Cimetière de" and similar. This leads to them all being categorized below C, which is rather useless.

Template:CategoryInfoBox Cemetery already has a parameter parent1sort, but apparently lacks one for parent, location and location1. Therefore I consider it a good idea to add parentsort, locationsort and location1sort to the CIB.

The alternative would be to insert {{DEFAULTSORT:<place name>, <cemetery name>}} directly into the category or also with an additional parameter.

Update 1: I just figured out, that we in Germany will have the same problem with Friedhof xxxx.

Update 2: After a bit more thinking, I don't consider DEFAULTSORT a good solution, because one might want to have the category sorted by town and county for parent and maybe also for parent1, but maybe not for the location, in order to have all cemeteries for that location (town, city) in one place (below C or F). On the other hand, location might be a county or region category, where it then would make sense again to have them sorted by first letter of the town.

Answer 1

I can add all sort orders to the template. The base template supports them.

Comments

Yes, please. As far as I can see, there are no objections. Thanks

---

Already done.

---

Woohoo, guess I should have checked before. Thanks a lot.

Answer 2

The biggest problem I see with the whole category structure for cemeteries is that up to mid-level categories, they run ''Region, cemeteries'' like France, Cemeteries for an example.  This format is repeated in multiple category trees, like occupations etc.  Cemeteries below this level then turn into cemetery name, location.  In this province, this causes extreme problems.  In French, the terminology is ''Cimetière xyz'', so everything then automatically gets sorted under C.

I had done a whole evolution on cemeteries that were created in this province previously (most of which had no profiles whatsoever), to introduce a pipe to sort them by location.  Somebody added a CIB to Elmwood cemetery, Sherbrooke, Québec, which removed the pipe from it, displacing it from the sort order from the letter S (for Sherbrooke) to the letter. E.  I've never lived in Sherbrooke, not sure I've ever even visited, but I sometimes have worked on profiles of people who lived there.  Not being familiar with Sherbrooke, I certainly wouldn't know that one of its cemeteries would be named Elwood.  There is now a whole list of cemeteries for that city linked on that category page.

I believe cemeteries (at least for this province) should take the format used for this one: Joliette, Québec, Cimetière Saint-Pierre (yes, all the profiles on there are related to me).  That way, cemeteries will all sort into location rather than under the cemetery name, since there can be more than one cemetery for a city, and there can be more than one cemetery with the same name.  In this province, there is a plethora of cemeteries named for a saint, never mind the fact that there are extremely many places named for a saint also.  Grouping them by the city makes it much easier to figure out where they may be interred.

As for adding CIBs to them, not convinced of the utility of CIBs for these.  Unless CIBs were minimized to only show GPS coordinates and city and cemetery name, without trying to sort them by cemetery name, as CIBs currently do.  And FaG is definitely not a source I find useful for this province.

Comments

For the record, the use of the pipe character for sorting where subcategories appear in the list in the parent category, referred to by Danielle, is described at

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Category_Creation_and_Removal#Changing_the_sort_order

(with an incorrect example).

---

Danielle, if you add the parent category with the sort pipe after the CIB, it will override the sorting from the CIB. It has to be added after the CIB to work, not above it. See here.

---

Margaret, don't follow what you are saying, the example you link doesn't have the problem.  Are you saying I would have to re-enter the parent categories with the pipe item after the CIB?  A whole lot of work in perspective.

---

Danielle, yes that's right, and yes it is a lot of work, just wanted you to know there was a very labour intensive solution. 

The migration example, without the pipe with "Migration" parent category, they would all be listed under either "I" for Immigrants or "E" for Emigrants, even though the category name starts with the country. That was how they originally were listed, must be the way the Migration CIB works. I added the parent and the pipe to them all so they would be listed under their country letter. 

---

ouch, the CIB is creating that problem then!   

---

Not sure if you saw it, Danielle. Now there are sorting parameters for all four parameters in place: parentsort, parent1sort, locationsort, location1sort.

This should make usage of Template:CategoryInfoBox Cemetery a lot nicer. Not only for French, but also for German cemeteries. Please let me know, which order you want for which parameter, so I can add them to BEE as well.

---

''Sets sort key for location category. You should know that only the first letter is used for sorting.''

The above shows on that ''sort key''.  So isn't going to answer what is needed, which is full sort as is found for other types of categories.

---

Based on my experiences from Wikipedia and from testing here, it seems that that only was about the letter receiving a separate section in the category. I tried it out at Category: Cimetière Knox Church Presbyterian, Crystal Falls, Argenteuil, Québec and to me the result looks good. What do you say?

Is it normal for Québec cemetery categories to not also use the location category?

---

most of the cemetery categories were a blanket creation without having  any profiles, before the agreements on categorization changed to not create empty categories.  So location categories themselves were not created along with them.Guy started with the A.. counties cemeteries, which is why there are so many of them created.

Many of these, including the example you cite, need renaming subsequent to municipal fusions.  Crystal Falls is now a borough of Arundel.  Argenteuil has been dropped from the naming for it, since they created ''Les Laurentides'' as an MRC, which is another reason just adding CIBs to many of these existing cemetery categories here poses problems, since there were massive municipal reorganizations between 2000 and 2002. (which were not the first such, but the most massive)  And also subsequent reversal of some of them.  réorganisation des municipalités du Québec wikip fr

I've added a current source with details on the specific cemetery of Crystal Falls.  

I am minded to scrap all the profile-less cemeteries that need fixing frankly, they mostly need renaming, since cemeteries are supposed to be under modern-day name.

---

So the sorting generally fits the way BEE does it, right?

How would the name of the category be correct?

---

nope, there are 2 cemetery category streams for parents, for one thing, English and French, right now only has the French parent.  Had both before.  And you added a parent category for Crystal Falls, Québec, which is red category, ie non-existent.

Crystal Falls is now part of Arundel, since municipal fusions.  It's considered a borough of Arundel.

There are no profiles in it.  

---

But there's parentsort and parent1sort set, so it should sort both correctly.

So what would the correct name, for the sake of having an example?