Where are the records of Joseph's father?

+7 votes
215 views

Hi,

Can you help me find records for Joseph's father, please?

His birth certificate and marriage certificate list his father as being Joseph Sandell.

His mother, Betsy Murrell married Edward Clarke Sandell (Sandall) in 1856.

In the 1861 census Betsy is listed as being widowed.

Betsy had a daughter (Mary Ann Elizabeth Sandell) born in 1859, Mary's birth certificate lists Edward as the father.

Betsy had a son, John Sandell, born 1863, who lists Edward as the father... interesting(!) as Betsy is listed as widowed in 1861 (married Edward in 1856).

Betsy had a daughter, Fanny Matilda Sandell, born 1869..her birth certificate lists Edward as the father..which is surprising because as far as I can tell Edward died around 1859/1860.

WikiTree profile: Joseph Sandell
in Genealogy Help by Jamie Sandell G2G1 (1.6k points)
retagged by Maggie N.

2 Answers

+3 votes
Hi Jamie!  

Just some ideas off the top of my head -- please tell me which of them you have already considered and disproved:

The indication of being a widow on the census:  I've seen ladies call themselves widows when their husband left them.  Maybe he came back, and fathered more children!  Also, census takers are not perfect either.  Do you have any other information about the death of Edward?  Looks like in 1871 she didn't say she was a widow.

The ages of Joseph's sibs: Are these birth dates from census records or from more contemporary sources?  It is not uncommon for people to only age 6 to 8 years between enumerations, even though the enumerations are 10 years apart.  Time flies!  Happens to us too, even though we are much more aware of our birthdate for official purposes than people were back then.  And then there are all the other possible reasons for wishing to appear younger than really is the case.  I've seen instances where this results in losing at least a decade, which would put those sibs back into the pre-widow time frame maybe...

The birth and marriage certificate info:  Any chance these are late registrations?  In Canada, there was a whole wave of late registrations when the paperwork was required for purposes that didn't exist when the event happened.  Then you have people trying to remember things that happened long ago -- amazingly, a lot of it turns out to be right!  Not all of it...

Are you looking at original docs for birth and marriage registrations?  Transcribers get tired and make mistakes too.

When i run into things like this situation you are facing, i try to hypothesize circumstances that could result in the records being what they are, and then try to prove/disprove the hypotheses.  One is that the registrar forgot to record Joseph's father's name, and decided to assume he was named after his father.  Or Joseph himself can't remember meeting his dad, so decides or is advised to assume he was named after his dad.  Or, his dad really was Joseph somebody, but his mother's last name was still Sandell, so some more assumptions and delicate coverups ensued...or after Edward passed away, Betsy married his brother or cousin Joseph, who also passed away or went away before the next census...

Is anyone doing any DNA in this line?  It is recent enough that you could expect some clues to emerge.

Let us know what you find along this interesting journey!

Cheers

Shirlea
by Shirlea Smith G2G6 Pilot (288k points)
+2 votes
I cannot answer your question regarding Joseph's father, but I am fairly certain it isn't the Edward Clark Sandell who married Elizabeth Hurrell on 31st December 1856 at Mattishall.

Following the birth and death of their first daughter, Mary Ann Sandell - born Q2 1857 mmn Murrell/died Q2 1857 (both events registered in the Mitford and Launditch district in Norfolk), Mary Ann Elizabeth Sandall was born Q3 1859 also in the Mitford and Launditch district with mmn Murrell.

There is a death registration Q4 1859 in the Mitford and Launditch district for an Edward Sandell age 31, this death would correspond with the burial at Mattishall on 10th December 1859 for 'Edward Sandell, age 31'.  The death certificate may help identifying him - maybe a family member registered the death.

There is a 'possible' baptism for an Edward Clarke Sandell the son of Edward and Mary Ann Sandell, occupation Victualler, on 17th June 1828 at Ludham in Norfolk, and in 1851 an 'Edward Sandle' an unmarried horse dealer age 24 and born in Ludham is a lodger in South Walsham in Norfolk.

If the death in 1859 is for Elizabeth's husband, then the father of John and Joseph would have to be 'unknown' at this time, but Fanny Matilda Annison identified her father as Robert Annison, labourer when she married on 19th September 1891.
by Anonymous Baker G2G6 Mach 3 (37.8k points)

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