Should the image change to the Died Young sticker be reversed?

Question

CHANGE PROPOSAL
That the Died Young sticker revert to the original image.

REASON
 There was a lack of transparency in the original proposal and the procedure applying to the change were not notified to the membership, nor was there an opportunity to vote on the proposal.
 The proposal to change  was posted in Policy and Style but appears not to follow the procedure in https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Developing_New_Rules which also applies to changing rules on Policy and Style.
 Many members were caught by surprise by the change and have subsequently expressed their opposition to it, and it was not explained that the change would apply to all existing profiles.

Advantages: restores the previous sticker image and provides time for a full discussion on whether the sticker image should be changed, and to what image it should be changed to.
 

Disadvantage: May require consecutive changes to image,

Edit after 13 votes both for and against. This proposal is intended to restore the sticker to have the same image as when they were created, respecting the choice of the person who added the sticker to the profile.
 The ability to use an alternate image on the sticker would remain.

Comments

The word "image" is a mandatory technical element for a sticker template. It can have a default value in a sticker, and it can be used as "image=" to allow insertion a user-selected image OR we can have identify several images with assigned names for use in a particular sticker. However, I did not find a way to allow BOTH user-selected images AND a defined range of several named images.

Refecting in it, I think it's a bad idea to invite users to add any image they please -- that defeats the sticker's purpose of providing a recognizable visual indicator of a significant bit of information.

The revised template is set up to allow a range of images with assigned names. Currently there are just two such named images: Ribbon and Cradle. More could be added, if there is a meaningful level of support for a particular image. I hasten to say that the Cradle image may not be one with a lot of support -- I chose it mostly as an example, and because it's visually effective in the sticker format.

Note that most of the different file names currently called out by the "image=" string are actually copies of the Ribbon image.

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Ellen - Thank you for the explanation of why we can't restore the |image= parameter, that's really helpful to understand.  And thank you too for the work you've put in to sorting out the coding.

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Then those hundreds of profiles where the |image= was used that are no longer displaying the image chosen get to remain in biographies as is?  (Because I am not re-editing all the ones I changed to remove the now useless parameter, and doubt anyone else will either.)

I will have to rethink using the died young sticker in future, as I do not like the alternate images and find the floating head not always appropriate.

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Thankyou for your efforts Ellen, but unfortunately the solution has recreated the original problem, that some people have had their chosen sticker overridden (thru' an unexpected coding issue) and understandably aren't happy, exactly the situation when I posted this issue on G2G.
 I'm going to add my voice to those asking that |image= is restored, that way everyone gets the image that they originaly choose, which is what I think most people voted for.
 I think your chosen solution of |image name is elegant, and it would have been ideal if that had been the way it was done from the start when other images were introduced, but we are now years and thousands of images down the other path of |image=.
 Is it feasible to use your system with an alternate sticker that would serve the same purpose eg {{Died Infant|Cradle}}, {{Died Teenager|Candle}} etc, stickers like that were suggested/requested by some people.

 I'm not the only one uncomfortable with using the same sticker on an infant and a teenager and was intending to try one of Elise's candles on the teens, now I don't have that option, and Melanie had images that were also suitable for other cultures or ages eg the butterfly.
It's strange that the | dosn't allow both a named image and image=.
 As the text remains on the image if image= is used, I don't see why using different images should be a problem and it allows flexibilty in what is a sensitive topic.

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I was writing a detailed reply to this message, but I lost my text when the browser tab closed, so this will be brief.

I had hoped to keep the "image=" function, but I couldn't figure out how to keep it, and also have a range of selectable named images. However, I now think it's best in the long run not to have the "image=" function, which is hard for many among us to use, and has somehow resulted in myriad different file names for the same image. In the short run, many stickers may need editing (but far fewer than the 100,000+ that were affected by the change made earlier in the summer). I am willing to help with the sticker-editing process.

The fact that only three alternate images are coded into the template at the moment does not mean that these are the only ones that will be included. It was clear that we need the ribbon, and the others are "what I grabbed." Which of the additional image files do members think should also be available in the sticker, and why?

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I gathered that this was an unintentional consequence of the system structure.
 Going from memory a number of people wanted a candle, Elise had a selection of options, about 6? a couple of those appealed to me.
 I know Melanie has some other images in use, I found her butterfly had appeal, so asking her opinion would be appropriate.
 Unfortunately given the technical issue involved, I can't view the other images previously in use, every image on the page I set up is the same.

 Other than editing another sticker to use the image code I don't know how to view the images previously in use.
 I think a teddybear was one.
 The question of which additional images really needs to be put out to the community maybe as a separate answer on this thread (edit which I've added), or as a new G2G question.

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Good morning!

While aware of the change from floating head to blue-pink ribbon, this thread went by me completely until right now. I have made extensive use of the image parameter, using the swing on a tree image that was propagated on the Stickers page of Remember the children. On the many profiles I have edited since the blue-pink ribbon change, I have wanted the ribbon for stillbirths and deaths up to the age of two (coding it simply {{Died Young}}) and the swing for older children (coding it with the image parameter). I cannot go back and change the coding as I have not kept a list of all the profiles I changed (I am not PM for most of them).

From what I have read in this thread so far, I hope that #1 the image parameter can be kept so that the swing image will not be lost on those profiles I edited, and #2 the parameters |Ribbon and |Swing be created or retained for future coding. I am sad that all those profiles which I coded with {{Died Young}} for the ribbon will now revert back to the floating head.

P.S.: Just saw that |Swing is also available, in addition to |Ribbon and |Cradle. I'm content with those parameters. Please don't change them again!

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Oliver, {{Stillborn}} has its own sticker.

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Melanie, yes, of course, thanks for the reminder. I actually do differentiate between {{Died Young|Ribbon}} for infants versus {{Stillborn}} for stillbirths, as I do for the corresponding categories. #thumbsup

In my comment, I inadvertently mentioned both stickers together as they both involve a pink-blue ribbon. Thanks again for the correction!

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The swing on the tree image that Oliver mentions is an option implemented on the Died Young template. Use the code {{Died Young|Swing}}.

More options need to be added.

Answer 1

Vote to reverse the Change

Comments

Yes, please, the simpler parameters for those of us who want to choose the image.

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I am going to repeat - as Melanie as pointed out -  the cherub is not necessarily a religious symbol; however, if that is the sticker that someone has chosen, that choice should have been honored and left alone. Changing on any profile should have been left to the PM. I would never presume to remove a sticker on someone else's profile. This should all be left to individual choices - not a mass change that is forced on everyone because even the hint of a religious connotation offends them. I am offended that my choice was removed.

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Arbitrary change made without real justification. What has happened to collaboration and the principle that PMs have the final say about whether or which stickers and/or categories stay on profiles? Why was a blanket change made when the (better?) option was available to choose either a different image or just remove the sticker if the PM decided the cherub wasn't appropriate or desired on the profile?

Revert the change. In the future provide options rather than fiats.

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Well, I, for one, learned a valuable lesson -- don't agree with a proposed change until you find out how it will be implemented.  

It never occurred to me that 100,000 - 200,000 (I've seen both numbers) stickers would be unilaterally changed, without notice, based on a discussion in which so few members took part.

I vote for reversal.  And, next time something like this comes up, more emphasis on Point #1 of the Honor Code.

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Having created the "Died Young" sticker back in 2017, I am personally offended that no one alerted me to the fact that the stone cherub (I recognized the origin, but I always thought of it more as a "flying baby") image that has been added to thousands of profiles over the years was proposed for replacement with a saccharine pink and blue ribbon -- and that all the profiles that displayed the stone image were going to be changed overnight to display a pink and blue ribbon.

It's fine if the "Remember the Children" crowd wants a different image, but please make your preferred image an alternate to the basic image that has been in use for nearly 6 years.

My main personal interest (but not my only interest) in the Died Young sticker has been to tastefully identify the profiles of children who died young in past centuries -- particularly those who were "replaced" by another child of the same name, so the deceased children's profiles would not be merged away on the assumption that they were duplicates created by mistake. I do not happen to see pink and blue ribbons as a universal symbol (certainly they would not be recognized as such by my dour Calvinist ancestors who buried more than a few of their young children) -- I see them as modern commercial symbolism associated with the world of Hello Kitty, Hallmark Cards, and Barbie.

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I agree totally with Ellen, it is not appropriate to have a blanket change to thousands of profiles.

The cherub has great historical significance and should never be taken from profiles of children who died when it was prevalent. If a PM does not wish to have it on the profile they can remove it.

Replacements should be available but not mandatory.

In some rare cases there may be a headstone photo available. If that is the case it would be great to take the image from the headstone.

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I was taken by surprise when I found the pink and blue ribbon on one of the profiles I manage. This is still recent enough that it shouldn't be a major concern to anyone to revert it back to what it had been originally, at least temporarily. Once it's been fully vetted and voted on per our standard procedures, then it can be changed. Anyone who disagrees with the end result and wants a different image can use the parameter to define a new one. That seems to me sufficient to cover all bases. (I personally would probably revert most of mine back to the cherub if that doesn't end up as the default image.)

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The change took me by surprise (although I do understand the concerns that led to it) and I feel the discussion before it took place was insufficient and definitely did not last long enough to allow interested persons to notice it let alone participate.

I feel more discussion is needed and for this reason support reverting the change, at least temporarily.

Edited to say - while not opposed to eventually changing the image, I am not OK with the pastel blue and pink ribbon. The more I see it, the uglier I find it. I am no longer using the Died Young template and have occasionnally removed it from profiles I still manage.

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Hooray! I thought - they've changed the image back (having looked at my Watchlist and seen loads of edits on 11 August).  So I went to one of the profiles and, no, the pink and blue ribbon is *still* there.

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There have been no edits to the template or the documentation for the Died Young Sticker since July 31.

Answer 2

Vote to keep the change

Comments

I vote to keep the change.

So many have viewed the "flying baby" graphic as religious so the pink/blue ribbon was selected as a replacement because the Remember the Children Project has had an existing pink/blue ribbon as their Project Box graphic for years. 

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I've been a member of RtC since before it WAS a Project, and I don't recall any such image.

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This is probably not the place to respond but it was there before I joined. I did not create it or select it.

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I'm fine with the change, it is more inline with other images to honor people who have died.

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Project has existed since long before 7 Apr 2023.  (My last comment on that.)

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I vote to keep it. Despite being religious I prefer something neutral.

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Donna and others, please see my post below. The cherub is not necessarily a religious icon! I included a URL about cherubs. They symbolize innocence, peace, love, harmony! Yes, some religious iconography has adopted the cherub to their purposes, but cherubs represent much more and are relevant from 0-18 years of age. And I cannot be the only one who celebrated Valentine's Day in grade school with cards that oftentimes had cupids on them.

@Melanie Paul: At some point as WikiTree becomes more diverse, we will likely need a team to support diverse stickers for various events. As to death of children in other cultures, I lived in Asia for three years. I mentioned in my post below that their icon is the Jizo Boddhisatva, who protects the spirits of dead babies and children. This icon can be found in China, Japan and other Asian countries. Latin America? I have taught in Panama, Ecuador, Argentina, and still teach twice a year in Mexico. Have any of you been to, say, Mexico on Day of the Dead? If not, watch the Disney animated film Coco. You will find families at the gravesites of their deceased babies, children, young adults on up to ancients cleaning the gravesites with skull, etc. iconography all over the place! Their patrons are the Virgen de Guadalupe and San Cristobal (patron saint of travelers). I expect they would be fine with cupid (Cupido) on their child or teen's profile.

Thank you for hearing me out (or reading me out).

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I would like to keep the change for many reasons that have already been stated by other people. Also you are now able to change the image if you want the Christian image.

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I have voted to keep the change as I voted for the change in the proposal posting

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I vote to keep the change. I was very pleased to see it, and rather dismayed when it abruptly reverted.

Answer 3

I vote to restore the original image of the winged cherub.

I too was caught by surprise when I found that all the stickers, no matter what the era, were changed to the new image. I managed to change back all the stickers on my watchlist.

Answer 4

I will not vote either way, because I find both the old "angel" image and the new "ribbon" image inappropriate in some ways. The angel has too many religious connotations, and the ribbon seems to be for infants, not for eg. a fifteen-year-old sailor who perished in a shipwreck.

I'll rather sit still in the boat until someone comes up with a better image, and we can have a real discussion of a change.

Comments

I agree with Leif in not liking either the old or the new image, on the grounds that neither is universal.

But everyone who added the sticker with the old image did so by choice: they were happy with that image, or they wouldn't have added it. Therefore I think the change should be reversed, and {{Died Young}} with no parameter should continue permanently to show the cherub. People who like the new image can add the parameter for it. If a new image that is better than either is found, it could be made available (as someone I apologise to for forgetting Melanie has already said) through something simple like {{Died Young 2}} or {{Died Young|2}} instead of the more complicated image parameter.

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I consider the function of this sticker as far more important than its looks. It provides a viual stop sign, telling that this profile is final, and no spouses or children should be attached to it, unless the sources are proven wrong.

I have never chosen the image for this sticker; it has been chosen for me. I wasn't particularly happy with the winged baby, but I'm even less happy with the new one. Yet I can see no reason to revert it. The "angel" simply had to go, in the name of culture neutrality. Individual members may go about and place religious stickers as they want on their own profiles, but the site itself cannot allow to put a default image with clear references to Christian faith on a widely used sticker that in itself has nothing to do with religion.

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Hi Leif, please see my comments about the cherub along with the URL. It is not necessarily a 'religious' icon...it goes much further back than 'religion' and was a Renaissance icon. Thanks!

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@Carol: No, arguably "not necessarily", but certainly in popular opinion associated with Christian faith. It may be argued that the figure has pre-Christian Roman roots, but it has been been appropriated by Christian artists to the extent that it now hardly can be seen as anything but "Christian" in a wide sense.

And as for the Renaissance, that was indeed a cultural movement well within the Roman Catholic sphere of influence.

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The "cherub" is a symbol and can mean different things to different people, so just because one person sees it as non-religious doesn't mean someone else will interpret it the same way. I objected to it, not because I felt it was religious, but because I see it as implying dead children became "cherubim" or angels which is theologically incorrect, in my opinion. So not all of us who are Christians liked the "cherub," nor are all of those who voted/are voting to eliminate the "cherub" as the default are "non-religious" or "non-Christians." 

I did not "choose" to use the cherub--it was automatically chosen for me when the "died young" sticker was applied and, for all this time, I have just gone along with it because I thought it was the "official" Remember the Children project/died young symbol. It has only been within the last few months I have seen discussions saying there were other options. 

I don't necessarily like the new ribbon, but I like it better than the "cherub" and would have gone along with it because, on Sandy's proposal thread, there was definitely a consensus to make the change despite what has been alleged here. If I wanted something different, I now know I have that option which is relatively easy to implement. I am dismayed by those who have implied or said that Sandy made this change "by fiat" without consulting the membership or didn't follow the Honor Code on collaboration. I believe Sandy acted in good faith based on the input she received. Sandy is owed some apologies!

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The Died Young sticker  (which was created after much discussion in G2G) existed before the Remember the Children project was started.

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I agree Jim, if the parameters for the sticker were easy to work with and remember, people would be able to easily choose their preferred image for a profile. I would even suggest not using numbers, but words if possible.

For example,

{{Died Young|Ribbon}}

{{Died Young|Heart}}

{{Died Young|Candle}}

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Yes, as Jim and Valerie have suggested, it ought to be possible to provide additional image options to the sticker -- either with short identifiers like "2" or with descriptive words.

And regarding the notion that the Died Young sticker should be cross-cultural, I have already noted that pink and blue ribbons are far from universals as symbols, and if there is truly a commitment to cultural diversity there would be stickers with wording in languages other than English.

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Ellen, I'm glad you shared about the "history" of the image and its use in the died young sticker. I was not aware of this. It has made me rethink my vote. I still prefer a different image, but I now think I should be the one to make the change, not you and others who have used it for many years.

Answer 5

Thank you, Gary, for your post.

I strongly concur as to reversing the change back to the original sticker and making all others alternates.

My prior posts make clear as to my reasons why the new pale pink and blue ribbon relevant to various forms of "infant" deaths are not relevant to deaths from birth to 18 years of age, particularly in view of the fact that the original stickers, developed in the time of Michaelangelo, are more relevant for these age groups.

These Western European gender-based colors are also irrelevant to deaths that occurred before the 20th century and not relevant to the diversity we wish to support on WikiTree. My guess is that in future, we may need to create a sticker with Jizo Boddhisatva, who protects the spirits of dead babies and children in several parts of Asia, particularly in Japan, Okinawa, China as WikiTree grows.

I was gobsmaked to read on an earlier post that someone reported some 100,000 profiles now have that non-genealogical relevant ribbon posted on profiles from the early 1500s onward.

It is also troubling that the timeline for this decision was very limited...begun in May and changed a few days ago, barely 2 months. Someone commented that people are no longer reading G2G. This is not necessarily true. During May, leaders were preparing for the Thon. People were signing up in June, then the Thon was held in mid-July. This is just ONE activity. We have several new activities, new programs, new members, greater growth and so much more. It is no wonder this was missed until those of us working on Sourcing, Integrators, Greeting, Data Doctors, various studies, etc. missed this!

I firmly believe that the cherub, which is gender neutral and drawn from primarily Renaissance art should be restored. Someone did comment about 'religious.' Cherubs are NOT necessarily a religious symbol: see https://marblising.com/history-of-sculpting-cherubs/#:~:text=Putto%20or%20more%20commonly%20known,clad%2C%20chubby%20babies%20with%20wings.

Cherubs have been equated with various themes throughout history: cupids on valentines day, innocence, peace, harmony, as well as romantic love. These words (not the romantic love) are much more relevant to the deaths of young people than the pink and blue ribbon symbolizing infant death in various manners. Cupids are not necessarily a 'religious' icon. Do any of you remember signing your names on Valentine Cards when you were in grade school? The image? Cupid! Or maybe this was way beyond your time, but I recall this.

So, I have gone on long enough about this change in my two other postings. I did mention in one that I have sent a very brief survey to genealogy colleagues and  friends/ colleagues who work in hospice/palliative care with a focus on infants to 16 years of age regarding the use of the ribbon versus cherub representing deaths ranging from birth to 18 years. I should be receiving responses in the next week (I just sent it yesterday). Thus far, I have heard from 5 of 50 surveys sent. Their response? Three of the 5 felt the cherub was relevant to the age groups (0-18 years) and to various timelines (1500 to current). One said if it was a choice between ribbon and nothing, they would use nothing. The fifth said they would use no sticker.

My vote: Reverse the change back to the cherub and make the ribbon the alternate option.

Thank you again for your post.

Comments

I am interested in hearing the results of this survey you mention, as well as information on on who the people answering are. Are they American? Christian? Do share.

Answer 6

I vote to make the image a choice.

Answer 7

I would prefer that the default be no image at all, with options for folks to use images if they want to.

Comments

All stickers contain images. If you don't want an image at all, don't use a sticker.

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You could use {{Died Young|image=Occupation_Image_Capture.jpg}} which is just a white rectangle.

110 pixels wide by 106 pixels tall.

Answer 8

I vote NOT to change it back.  I have a lot of thoughts about people making a big deal about this but in the interest of being nice, I'll stop now.

Comments

I have used {{Died Young}} on toddlers, and I think children through primary school age. The ribbon device is specifically recognised as infants/babies or pre-birth death - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_and_blue_ribbon so not appropriate for children once they could walk.

I don't see it as sexist, as it is an interpretation by the viewer that they see a looped ribbon that is pink on one side and blue on the other as showing some kind of gender power play. They even point out that these colours don't universally refer to gender, yet the ribbon is recognisable.

Answer 9

Maybe this is simplistic but here is a suggestion. This topic is getting rather contentious and I, for one, would like to see it settled to accommodate everyone. Revert the original cherub to {{Died Young}} or add a -1.  Then have other options that are already available and continue to create others. Everyone can choose what they want to use - individual choice but numerous options will be available. Problem Solved!

Can anyone involved in this discussion make this decision or refer it up the ladder to be made? This should not devolve into a free-for-all when it can simply be taken care of. I think the real issue was the mass change that happened and that was wrong. Let's make it right and move forward.

Comments

Virginia, this sounds like a reasonable suggestion under the circumstances.

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Thank you, Nelda!

Answer 10

I too would prefer that the default be no image or perhaps something along the lines of a capital DY, which is a more neutral choice than the ribbon that implies infancy.

Answer 11

Vote to reverse the change. I don't like the pink and blue ribbon because it is so specific to infancy. However, if many are still opposed to the cherub imagery I think a candle would be a relevant choice. Usage of candles is not Christian specific. It also makes me think of the birthdays someone who died young never had.

Comments

The only issue with the candle is that candles are used in remembrance of anyone who has died, regardless of age, so it's not specifically tied to "died young."

The question then is, does it matter? After all, do we have an official WT definition for "young," providing an age cutoff? 50 can be considered dying young nowadays, but a few centuries ago it was common.

I think the proposal to have multiple image options to choose from is wise. While all human beings are the same in some ways, we are also all unique, so there's never going to be a single image that satisfies everyone.

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Deborah, I think you are hitting on the heart of the problem, that there is no definition of "Died Young." I generally use it for 18 and under, but I know many use it differently.  

Modern "premature death" is generally defined as dying before age 75. The life expectancy, if you disregard child mortality, has not changed that much over time. Most of the change has been infant and children mortality. See here. 

Life expectancy at the age of 21 (here)

• 1200–1300: age 64
• 1300–1400: age 45 (bubonic plague)
• 1400–1500: age 69
• 1500–1550: age 71

I absolutely agree that there should be multiple options. 

Just thinking here... maybe revert the sticker to the cherub and provide these options.  

{{Died Young | Pregnancy Loss}} (Pink & Blue Ribbon)

{{Died Young | Stillbirth}} (Pink & Blue Ribbon)

{{Died Young | Infant}} (Pink & Blue Ribbon)

{{Died Young | Child}} (Candle)

{{Died Young | Young Adult}} (Candle)

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The sticker has an optional image currently so anyone can select any image to be used.

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I think it would be helpful to have an option to change the text as well. EX: was stillborn, died in infancy, etc.

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{{Stillborn}} has been a separate sticker for a while.  It does use a ribbon, one that was decided upon by the community.

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I must live in a deprived area life expectancy was 45 in 1850s maybe its a class thing - working class area / urban.

Answer 12

Adding an answer in hopes of getting this thread to appear in the G2G feed again,

Answer 13

There is another post on another G2G about this controversy with a potentially good and acceptable alternative. Melanie Paul (I think it was her) posted photos of various candles (see below for an example). I am EXTREMELY picky as most of you might have realized about an appropriate image for Died Young that would cover 0 to 18 years of age across the centuries (back to, in some cases, the 1500s). Candles have been used across cultures and throughout the ages at births, marriages, deaths, memorials. They are gender neutral and timeless. I think Melanie's (apologies if not Melanie) idea of a simple sticker votive would be a very acceptable replacement. 

I mentioned in my post that I do not have the leadership or gravitas with WikiTree to set up a new G2G post displaying a couple of other images of very simple candles akin to the one below as a replacement. I do believe a fresh post on G2G with the choices of candles (there were maybe three) and a vote on which one would help to end the controvesy and smooth frayed nerves. Again, I think this is a fine idea that spans the age groups across the ages. Thank you!

Comments

Carol, I appreciate your intent. I have changed my vote to revert to the default image for the died young sticker back to the "cherub." What changed my mind was learning the back-story of the use of the image on WikiTree. Gary's proposal looks like it will be approved. If it does, the "cherub" will again become the default image and should, in my opinion, remain so. I would not support a change to a different default image. It is still not my personal preference for the reason I have previously given, but I am willing to make any changes to some other image which is more to my preference. Like Melanie and another WikiTreer, in response to Leif's idea re a candle, I uploaded a candle image I worked on this afternoon to my own freespace of images which I may use or I may use other alternative.

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Thank you, Nelda, for your very thoughtful response!

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The only thing is: a candle would represent anybody who died at any age, say, a 88-year-old.  The image needs to show that it is a baby/toddler/child/young person.

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Hello Ros, I appreciate your feedback, although curt and rather hurtful.  I have lived and traveled throughout Asia, spent a great deal of time in Latin American countries, continue to teach in Mexico, have spent time in Eastern and Western European countries. I am a retired hospice/palliative care nurse and have attended more deaths and funerals for various age groups than most. I have taught Death & Dying at the university level. I had the good fortune to attend presentations by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross back in the day when I was a young nurse. Seeing the candle images presented by several WikiTreers reminded me that throughout these travels and experiences, these death rituals included lighting candles for most beliefs and for babies (yes even newborn deaths) on up to over 88 years. A lighted candle to this controversy is a fine idea. It was not mine, but I do think it is a fine idea given my recall of all these past experiences I wondered why I had not recalled this 'symbol'. As others pointed out, we have some 100,000 profiles of 0 to 18 on WikiTree. The ribbon idoes not cover centuries and only represents newborns. A default image is required that can address these age groups across the centuries, not just the 20th century. Personally, I have been fine with the 'cherub' image as the defaut.

WikiTree is supposed to be a collaborative effort. All this being said, after receiving your post and Melanie's last night, I am no longer going to respond further to any of these posts relevant to an image for deaths 0 to 18 across the millennia (and, yes, I can hear several of you celebrating). I just do not need to read these abrupt responses that are not at all helpful to the issue and they just serve to raise my blood pressure. Good night and good luck.

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But I didn't say anything 'curt and hurtful '! I made sure it was fine.  I am so sorry that you were upset. Now I am crying.

Answer 14

I do wish G2G allowed "liking" comments, as some of the comments on some of the answers were exactly what I wanted to say.

I think the proposal to have multiple image options to choose from is wise. While all human beings are the same in some ways, we are also all unique, so there's never going to be a single image that satisfies everyone. And I don't think there's an image that would be universally recognized as representing "died young" and be easily identifiable from a single item without context (eg a tiny -- often white -- coffin is sometimes used to represent the loss of a child in western cultures, but may not be recognizable in all cultures, nor would the size of the coffin be obvious when the image was on its own with nothing to determine size against).

Since the blue-pink ribbon is used for pregnancy and infant loss, I don't think it's appropriate for "died young," as someone who died in their 30s still died young. (On a personal note, as someone who lost two of my three babies to miscarriage -- and I have friends who lost many more -- please don't appropriate the acknowledgement we finally have of how devastating pregnancy loss can be.) Having it as an option for stillborn children and children who died within their first year is appropriate, but not for the very general category of "died young."

I vote for reversion to the original (there were cherubs in Greek and Roman mythology; if people think it's a purely religious -- even particularly Christian -- image, they need to study history and mythology more) -- at least until a consensus can be reached for the main image -- with multiple options to change it to that would better reflect individuals' culture and even the stage of life at which the person "died young."

Comments

Consistent with what Deborah has stated, neither "cherubs" nor the imagery of "flying babies" is unique to, nor owned by, the Christian religion. I recall Old Testament mentions of cherubim and seraphim. The Wikipedia articles Cherub and Putto provide enlightening discussions of (1) the cherubim in the traditions of all three Abrahamic religions (and probably also earlier cultural traditions) and (2) representations of putti ("flying babies") in the contexts of classical mythology and both secular and religious art.

The notion that the "stone cherub" image is uniquely and exclusively Christian calls to mind a man of my acquaintance who was surprised to see a Roman Catholic Church dedicated to St. John the Baptist -- because he thought that the word "Baptist" was the sole province of "Baptist" denominations.

Answer 15

If we have systems in place to discuss widespread changes before they happen then they need to be used. The old image should be restored whilst discussions take place.  This shouldn't even have needed to become an issue on the forum.

Answer 16

INTERIM SUMMING UP
 Approx 9pm NZST Sunday 6 August

 I would like to thank everyone for their thoughtful and courteous contributions, in posting this topic on G2G I was very nervous about the possible tone of the responses as some past G2G topics have been acrimonious, I am grateful for the civilised exchanges on this post.

Current votes on the Voting tabs I created
 For restoring the previous image 55 votes
 

For keeping the new (ribbon) image 24 votes 

Current votes on the Voting tabs others created and total.
 For restoring the previous image 15+9+10+12+3 = 49, Grand total =104
 

For keeping the new (ribbon) image 4                                    Grand total =28
 

Approximately 4 to 1 in favour of reverting to the previous image.

I haven’t tallied votes for no image or other images, the option of a choice of image or a blank image exist now, and there is no proposal to change that suggestion, my (probably imperfect) attempt at a compromise further in this post accommodates these options as well.

There is a significant majority in favour of restoring the original image.
I have contacted the managers of the Templates Project for their views but have only had a response from one, that might be a result of time zone differences. The response I received was neutral

There are also a number of responses that prefer no image or other images such as a candle.
 That is possible now, both Melanie Paul and Elise Hatchfield have different options posted on Wikkitree, I’ll try and put links below or on a separate answer, for those looking for a sticker version Elise has a selection.

For those who use either Sourcer or Wikitree Extension, Rob Parvey and Ian Becall have indicated that it is feasible to introduce an option allowing a user to select their preferred version of Died Young (and I haven’t asked them how many versions they can accommodate, or if they will introduce that choice). That will automatically insert the user’s preferred image when using the sticker

 For those that don’t or won’t use the extensions, their preferred choice can be loaded into the Scratchpad on everyone’s Nav Home Page (or other locations of their choice) and copied and pasted into a profile as required, there is no need to type the full code/text in each time.

 This is the best compromise I can come up with:

 Restoring peoples historic selection of the wings and baby (stone and wings) face,  that respects the choice of the person who placed the original image sticker on the profile. That of necessity returns the default image to the original image. Others have posted that this retrospective change may have affected 170,000 profiles.
 As is now the case, allowing a choice of images on the Died Young sticker, and inviting our Extension experts/managers to provide options to allow everyone to preselect their desired option of sticker/image. Just as restoring the old sticker/image respects members past choices, this respects members future choices.
 For those people who don’t use extensions, they can save and copy and paste their preferred option, as they can now.

 For those who would prefer no image, that is not technically feasible, although a blank image is possible.
 I believe that complies with the honour code, everyone’s past choice is respected and restored, and everyone who prefers a different image can use a sticker with their choice of image in the future (as they can now.

 That is the best I can come with, someone(s) else may have a better idea.

 One of the most succinct summing ups of the situation came from one of my Kiwi Crew colleagues:
“I don't care about the icon, but on principle something that's already on 170k profiles shouldn't be changed .”
 I think that’s a fair statement of principle, and the Templates Project homepage states “As changes to existing templates will directly and immediately display on all pages that are using the template, project members must always exercise care in making or suggesting changes, and any changes should be discussed and reviewed with affected project leaders (for project specific templates) and/or with the Wikitree community (through G2G) before any major revisions are made.”

 In my view the change process miscarried, and should be reversed, and there is majority support for such a reversal.

 Perhaps the best example of the communication failures involved in this process is that the person who instigated the Died Young Sticker and who manages the related Free Space page (and is a member of the Templates Project) was unaware of this change proposal and it’s implementation.
 That situation should give us all pause for thought.

 Several good suggestions have been made to add more communication channels, we have a weekly newsletter, and a presence on Discord and maybe they can be used to enhance communication, and also maybe that topic should have it’s own G2G thread. As should ideas to improve our systems.
 

 I hope this summary will stimulate further comments.

 All errors, omissions and spelling mistakes are entirely my own work and to my discredit.

Link to Melanie Paul’s Page with Died Young sticker alternatives
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:RTCimages#Assorted

Link to Elise Hachfeld Stickers/Images

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Hachfeld-3_Images

Elise’s Died Young with candle image stickers

{{Died Young|image=Hachfeld-3_Images-8.jpg}}

{{Died Young|image=Hachfeld-3_Images-5.jpg}}

{{Died Young|image=Hachfeld-3_Images-4.jpg}}

{{Died Young|image=Hachfeld-3_Images-6.jpg}}

{{Died Young|image=Hachfeld-3_Images-7.jpg}}

And my thanks to to Melanie and Elise for making these stickers available to our community. Anyone who has other options is invited to post them as a comment to this answer.

Comments

Great summary.

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It is really nice to see how stats can be manipulated to suite your viewpoint. Your calculations connot be proven by you because you cannot see the downvotes nor can you see who voted more than once.

For example the voters on option one voted up option one and downvoted option two. The voters who voted up on option two, only voted once. Thus it can be concluded that option two actually received the most upvotes.

That is why this up and downvote system of Wikitree is so flawed  but they see no need to change it because WikiTree is not a democracy, and they can decide what they want to do.

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If you take only the totals on the 1st 2 options it is still overwhelming to restore the default.

Do you really want or expect everyone that voted up in the 1st option to downvote the 2nd option also?  or for those that upvoted the 2nd option to be downvoting the 1st option? Why not just read the comments and count those for the votes because you can also tell from the comments which way people were voting?  

As you said and as the Developing the Rules states, it is not a democracy and the Templates Project, the person that made the change to the Template, Chris, Team, etc will make the decision about reverting the default option. There have been plenty of proposals that were overwhelming wanted and were never discussed again because it is not a democracy.

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Louis, a lot of people have been using the Alternate Image option on the Died Young, some with the ribbon and some with other options.  

This is only the usage as of the Data Dump a week ago.  I am sure the Usage will have changed quite a bit by this week since many people started manually putting the cherub back on, but the majority have done nothing, waiting to see what happens.  Of course, that doesn't count the 'thousands of members that wikitree has' that don't look at G2G so they are not aware of this Question.

https://www.softdata.si/wt/Templ_20230730/Template_Died_Young_Txt.htm

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And how did you view the down votes and who voted twice?

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For what it's worth, I believe that members of the Team can see details of up- and down-votes. Thus, if there are serious questions about whether people unfairly manipulated the "votes" in this thread by downvoting their non-preferred option, they should be able to see what actually happened.

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Thank you for that, I've just been given that info by someone else, If anyone else raises the issue I will request that WT management look into it
 I didn't count the comments here or on discord, or use Wikitree+ to tally how many profile were changed back to the old image. But everything is trending in the same direction.

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The Team has access to the votes, and currently, the discussion leans towards a ratio of approximately 3:1. Despite this, there have been several objections raised concerning both images. Reverting the change at this point might not be the most sensible course of action.

Proposing an entirely new image and seeking consensus on it could be the most favorable approach in this situation.

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I've done a tally and will do a final summing up in the morning, it's almost 1am.
 I understand your point, but I also see a problem.

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Surely proposing an "entirely new image and seeking consensus on it" is up to the RTC Project, considering the sticker appropriated by the Project (of which I am a member) was in existence long before RTC as a small-p project existed in Antonia's mind.  (I was one who pressed the idea that we should be a real capital-P Project).

Ellen's creation of the {{Died Young}} was never associated with just one Project but was for the use of all members no matter with which Projects the member/s were associated.
As such, the {{Died Young}} should be returned to its original state, and the RTC Project should request the creation of a sticker that uses the ribbon image as chosen by Sandy to replace the tree with empty swing as used by Antonia.

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This question was 'should the default image be reversed?' The decision was that the original default should be used.  Going forward, there is an alternate image that can be used, but it was not an option for the over 168,000 profiles it was used on in the past. If a different image is desired for some profiles for the future, then a new, similar sticker(s) can be created with different default images, but the default image should not be changed on the existing sticker, per this G2G. As seen by the usage stats for the Died Young sticker, lots of people have already been using the alternate image.  When the sticker was added, people knew what image was being added at that time, so they made the decision then whether to use it or not. It was not part of any project and should not be considered as part of a project now. The majority of people that added the sticker will not see the G2G question about it, so it should not be changed now when it has been used on so many profiles.

Edited to update number of profiles sticker is used on and to add link to usage stats.

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In light of this vote, I trust that the Templates Project will restore the original image of the face and wings promptly.
 The new sticker that uses that image will need to be retained, as some people have already used it to change back on profiles they manage.
 I am waiting on replies from a few people before finalising my summary.

Answer 17

Sourcer now has an option to allow the user to add their chosen version of the Died Young sticker, you will need to paste the code in the Entry Box under Add/Merge, subsection Add Person.

 My summing up is delayed as I am waiting on a reply I've made.

Comments

Wherever your request to the Templates Project was directed, it didn't make it to the Templates project Google Group (wikitrees-templates-project at the googlegroups.com domain), and the situation has not be discussed by project members.

 I believe it would be pretty straightforward to edit the Template code to include short identifiers (such as numbers or words like Candle, instead of clunky-looking file name) for various alternative images, so options could be added to the template without much difficulty.

In view of the indication that this has been referred up the chain for a decision, I'm hesitant to take the bold step of reverting the template to the original image, but I'm getting impatient.

Answer 18

I don't have anyone that the new sticker would be appropriate on. When they died, they didn't have ribbons, they had cherubs which was appropriate funerarium imagery.

I want them turned back because I didn't change them nor want them changed, but because "somebody decided" I now have to go back through and change them to what they were; I hope I get them all. That of course is after I figure out what the used to be automatic generic generated cherub is called so I can try to reverse-engineer it to get it back right on their profiles.

As far as what the appropriate image to use on the automatic sticker should be, I'm not clear on because of all the world history, religions & funerarium imagery appropriate to different time lines you would have to take into consideration in order to please some of the people; you will never please them all.

Then there is also the question of why we are all on WikiTree in the first place & what expectations the TreeDwellers can expect from the community. If we are here to promote Open Communication, then that is a process that should be followed to it's conclusion, not stopped because the three people present agreed to the change & made it, evidently. That is not what I signed on for.

I signed on to represent history in a FACTUAL WAY! There is no way that you are going to convince me that using the modern pink/blue ribbon as the generic go to funerarium imagery to represent died young, whatever that personally means to anyone, for EVERYONE across time & across the world is in any way a factual representation of the subject.

If the cherub was the product of a discussion on this topic that was discussed & dealt with, why are we trying to re-invent the wheel again? If you don't like what is there & think it needs to be changed because you want it to show something else when you place the sticker, then you change the image to what you want. But don't make me change my stickers for your beliefs.

You have a right to your beliefs just like I have a right to mine. But those rights stop at each of our boundaries. That point is where open communication comes in, it's called compromise, discussion, collaboration what WikiTree is all about. Creating Win/Win situations to work together to create the Human Tree using & citing facts.

Why is it not on point if I refer to a Civil War document in my cousin's WWII general head thinking while he's dying as a turret gunner in the Spook III, but using a pink & blue ribbon is apparently now not only acceptable world-wide but ok to use throughout history as well. 

In case you didn't understand my vote in that rant, it is to turn it back.

Answer 19

FINAL SUMMING UP

 I would like to thank everyone again for their thoughtful and courteous contributions, in posting this topic on G2G I was very nervous about the possible tone of the responses as some past G2G topics have been acrimonious, I am grateful for the civilised exchanges on this post.

My apologies for the delay in posting this, it's been a more complex and time consuming process that expected.

I’ve tallied the votes as at 12 midnight Monday 8^th August NZST, which should be Midnight Sunday for the immediately preceding time zone.

Final votes on the Voting tabs I created
 For restoring the previous image 58 votes
 

For keeping the new (ribbon) image 25 votes

Current votes on the Voting tabs others created and total.
 For restoring the previous image 16+10+10+12+6 = 49, Grand total =112

For keeping the new (ribbon) image 4                                    Grand total =29
 

Approximately 4 to 1 in favour of reverting to the previous image. (3.86:1)

I haven’t tallied votes for no image or other images, the option of a choice of image or a blank image exist now, and there is no proposal to change that suggestion, my (probably imperfect) attempt at a compromise further in this post accommodates these options as well.

There is a significant majority in favour of restoring the original image.
 

There are also a number of responses that prefer no image or other images such as a candle.
 That is possible now, there are currently 59 different sticker codes (including default in use at 164,421) out of about 168,000 Died Young.
 As some people have already changed back to the original image, it seems that there still exist around 164,000 stickers that have been overwritten in the image change.   
 

I have made a formal request to the Templates Project to revert the default image to the original image, given the results of the total voting, 80% to 20% (to the nearest round figures). (67% to 33% on the vote options I provided).
 That request has been bounced back to me, I have now referred the issue to Eowyn and Chris Whitten.

For those who use either Sourcer or Wikitree Extension, Rob Pavey and Ian Becall have indicated that it is feasible to introduce an option allowing a user to select their preferred version of Died Young (and I haven’t asked them how many versions they can accommodate, or if they will introduce that choice). That will automatically insert the user’s preferred image when using the sticker.
I have asked them to add this ability to their improvements list. Rob Pavey advised me he had already added that option for the next update, which is now live. I have used it.

One of the most succinct summing ups of what has occurred came from one of my Kiwi Crew colleagues:
“I don't care about the icon, but on principle something that's already on 170k profiles shouldn't be changed .”
 Other people have made comments along the same lines including at least one where the person didn’t like the old image, but objected to the retrospective change.
 I think that’s a fair statement of principle, and the Templates Project homepage states “As changes to existing templates will directly and immediately display on all pages that are using the template, project members must always exercise care in making or suggesting changes, and any changes should be discussed and reviewed with affected project leaders (for project specific templates) and/or with the Wikitree community (through G2G) before any major revisions are made.”

 In my view the change process miscarried, and should be reversed, and there is majority support for such a reversal.
 Perhaps the best example of the communication failures involved in this process is that the person who instigated the Died Young Sticker and who manages the related Free Space page (and is a member of the Templates Project) was unaware of this change proposal and it’s implementation.

 The situation that arose should give us all pause for thought.
 Several good suggestions have been made to add more communication channels, we have a weekly newsletter, and a presence on Discord and maybe they can be used to enhance communication, and also maybe that topic should have it’s own G2G thread.

 

To aid in choosing a preferred Died Young Sticker I have created a free-space page [[Space:DIED_YOUNG_STICKER_VERSIONS|DIED YOUNG STICKER VERSIONS]]
 Anyone is welcome to add to this page, to view the code for a sticker use the edit tab.

 Gary Burgess

Editted:

Misspelling of Rob Pavy and Chris Whitten, removal of markups on transfer from Word, I missed all those issues last night.

Comments

Gary,

I have tried to find that free-space page, but when I put what you have up there, this is all I get:
SPACEDIED_YOUNG_STICKER_VERSIONSDIEDYOUNGSTICKERVERSIONS Genealogy on a landing page.

Can you please help me find that page so I know what the options are for this?

Thanks! 

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The template page is still showing both versions, https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:Died_Young

I just added the cherub one to this profile, https://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Hope-2981 it's working at the moment, I'll see what happens

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Pat, what you're looking for is probably this one

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:DIED_YOUNG_STICKER_VERSIONS

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Yes, this is it. Thanks Melanie, I appreciate you giving me this link.

Answer 20

Has there been a resolution to this issue yet? I am working on cemeteries in one parish in Louisiana and I have found more children who died young and I would like to use the proper sticker but not the ribbon. I would like to see the accepted list and how to create the one I want - mainly the cherub but I don't want to use the new creation of it and then have it changed.

Comments

For a month now, I've been using the {{Died Young|image=Died_Young-1.jpg}} for the cherub sticker. I think that it's safe to use and that the image won't be changed into somethiong else, whatever will happen.

Concerning my stance above that I would not see the cherub as the default image, I'm perfectly happy with using it as my preferred "Died Young" image. The culture that I'm working with was solidly Lutheran, and it seems like everybody was convinced that dead children became angels. But I still think that it should not be the default, as a confession-neutral site should be careful about symbols that may be construed as belonging to one specific religion. Everybody should feel free to use it as the result of a personal, concious choice, though.

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This waiting should be over by now.  Considering most of the responses here were to revert the sticker to its original image and intention (which was in use long before the RTC movement began on WT, which was long before it became a Project), perhaps the RTC Project should propose its own sticker using the 21st century ribbon image.  If those in favour of the ribbon image don't wish to do what the rest of us have been pushed into doing and copy and paste the image ID# for the ribbon, perhaps the ribbon image could be {{Died Young-2}} or something similar.  {{Died Young}} should be the floating baby head with wings.
For those who prefer neither, there is now the option to use an own image, by adding the parameter.

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I totally agree, Melanie. Who needs to make this decision?

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Gary formulated his question as a change proposal. It seems to be up to this step:

If there has been no discussion for two weeks and you would like to see it finalized, post a follow-up comment on the G2G discussion asking if it can be closed. Then email [the Team info address] pointing to your request for closure.

So Gary could proceed that way, if he wishes to do so. Alternatively, the "you" in that section may be ambiguous: perhaps anyone who would like to see finality can undertake those steps.

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I referred the outcome to Chris Whitton and Eowyn, the Forest Elf, by PM to both, I missed the closing step above as this is my first experience of this process.
 I have not had any acknowledgement of those messages.
I have been in wait and see mode, and have also had other commitments.
 My understanding from other change proposal threads is that Wikitree Management monitor them anyway.
 For my part I've started reverting the stickers on the profiles I manage one by one, I thought someone had posted the search text to find all the profiles someone manages with the sticker, but couldn't find it when I went looking for it.

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Here is the link to find all the Died Young stickers that were changed on your watchlist: just change where it says Butter-100 to your Wiki ID.

https://plus.wikitree.com/function/WTWebProfileSearch/Profiles.htm?Query=CreatedBy%3DCreator_Butter-100+TemplateFull%3DDied_Young&MaxProfiles=500&Format=

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It has been another month, and the Died Young sticker is still displaying the 21st century ribbon despite a majority of people stating they wish it to be restored to the original sticker as it was intended.

Why has no change been made?  Why has the RTC Project not made a proposal for their ribbon image to be on its own sticker?

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I have revised the template so that the Died Young sticker uses the original image as the default again, and there are options for using simple identifiers to call up an alternate image. Currently the alternate options are Ribbon and Cradle.

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Thank you for that, Ellen, but I have another issue as a result.

It seems the change that was made, to allow the parameter |image= no longer works.

Can this be reinstated, please? 
(I now have at least 175 profiles (perhaps more) where I added the |image= parameter that now show the floating head with wings, even though the choice was made to not use that or the ribbon.)

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Shucks! I thought that I had re-enabled the "image=" functionality alongside the new coding. But I see that it's not working.

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Yes, please see the stickers displayed here:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:RTC_-_Resources

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I see the default has been changed back to the flying baby, ok. Now the ribbon & tree swing are the only other options? 

What I am having a problem with is no longer having the ability to choose which image I want to use from this page: 

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:RTC_-_Pictures

Please restore that abilitiy!