German Immigrants in American Church Records

Question

You suggested that you might be able to research a person in these records.  I have a brick wall for my German ancestor, and nowhere else to look.

Name is John Schoeppner/Schöppner. Born in Germany in 1818 or 1823 (different records); immigrated in the 1850s to USA. Lived in New York City only, for his whole life; did not move to Ohio or the midwest. He died 18 May 1891 and is buried in Green-Wood Cemetery in Brooklyn, NY. Married Josephine Dirlan, probably before immigrating; they had 5 children. John/Johann is my g-g-grandfather.  Would love to know where she was born, also (records disagree).

I would appreciate any help you can offer; I have been stuck here for 20 years, and nowhere else to look and no other clues.  Census records list various birth locations: Germany, Bavaria, Prussia.

Thank you very much for considering this request.  

Sandy Morrey

Comments

Please get in touch with somebody from this post:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1594133/access-volume-german-immigrants-american-church-records-giacr

You also might want to check our suggestions on How to break down your German immigrant brick wall

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I placed a link to naturalization record under the research notes on his profile.

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Thank you.  I have this already in my FTM file, but it is good to see it here also.

I REALLY wish to know WHERE he was born so that I might visit the town, and possibly discover other Schoeppners who might be related.

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I have already done all the things on this list.  All the information from these searches exist already in my family tree file.  Nowhere can I find WHERE he was born, exactly--what city/town.

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Have you looked for obituaries, not just direct ancestors, but other family members? These normally gives details, that is for church services, of the funeral. Ancestry has indexes to obituaries, with computer generated extracts, but not the actual obituaries. If you find something there a subscription to Newspapers,com may be of value. They have (or used to have!) a 15 day free trial.

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Yes, I have all of their children identified, and other descendants also.  John and Josephine Schoeppner are my mother's great grandparents.

Thank you.

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Sandy, it will help other researchers if you added all sources to the profile inline and enhanced the profile with a better description of all the evidence you have.

The fact that his naturalisation record mentions that he gave up his oath of allegiance to the King of Bavaria is important information.

You might like to transcribe the naturalisation record and all the other records you have in FTM under Research Notes, and add the necessary sources.  

For example, what makes you think he emigrated in 1846/1847 like the profile suggest or in the 1850s like you suggest here? Did he come back to Europe and emigrate twice? If not, only one date can be correct. 

Why do you think he was born in Darmstadt? Was Darmstadt even ever in Prussia? You can find the answer to that question here in the image at the bottom: https://wiki.genealogy.net/Darmstadt

Yet, the profile explains at length that he was perhaps born in Darmstadt and what Darmstadt was politically, yet what is your exact source for your hypothesis?

Sven

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The WIKITREE profile for John Schoeppner has everything you suggest, including WHY I believe he was born in Darmstadt, Prussia.

It is unlikely that he was born in Bavaria, as the Naturalization record suggests.  There are several other John Schoeppners to whom this record might refer.

I think he was born in Darmstadt because his son John's 1920 census said that he was; other censuses including his own merely state that he was born in Germany.

I personally visited Germany about 2010, and I went to the present city of Darmstadt, south of Frankfurt. There I spoke with an aide, working in the archives in Darmstadt, who helped me try to find my John. There were NO Schoeppners in Darmstadt. He suggested that my John likely lived in Darmstadt in the previous state/country of Prussia. In the early 1800s, Darmstadt WAS a city in Prussia, he said, and there were some Schoeppners living there many years ago. This is why I suggest that my John was born NOT in the present city of Darmstadt south of Frankfurt, but in Darmstadt in what WAS Prussia. This is all outlined in my Wikitree profile for John.

So sorry that my G2G question did not specify as much as there is in my Wikitree profile of John.

I transcribed EVERY bit of information that I could find for John Schoeppner. I went so far as to try to decide if the John listed was MY John or a different John. Other John Schoeppners moved to the middle part of the USA, and MY John stayed and died in New York.  This fact makes my search even more challenging, given that there are several additional Johns born in Germany.

Someone suggested that I should find out when and where John married Josephine.  No record anywhere in New York. His children apparently were not baptized in New York, as no record can be found for this information.

As I said, I have been searching for 20 years, and even a trip to Germany did not uncover his birthplace. I am not perfect, but I did as much as I could think of. I have even visited some of the churches in the area of Darmstadt (Prussia) where Schoeppners lived. I plan to visit again and visit additional churches.

You have been very critical of my efforts to try to find my g-g-grandfather in Germany. I did not try to justify WHY I discovered what I discovered with my research. That would be too voluminous for this G2G question.

Answer 1

JOHN SCHOEPPNER from tree Morrey Charles 2 Family

Record information.

Birth	12 May 1818 Darmstadt, Darmstadt, Hesse, Germany
Marriage	1855
Residence	1891 New York City, New York, USA
Death	18 May 1891 New York City, New York, USA

Record information.

Spouse	JOSEPHINE DIRLAN (1834-1906)

8161 People6 Records21 Sources

Comments

This is not an answer to my question.  This information all comes from my Wikitree memorial, nothing new here.

I was asking about what church they attended while in New York, according to the  American Church records.  I still would like to know this.

Sandy Morrey

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Sandy, The set German Immigrants in American Church Records is a work in progress and they have not published volumes for New York yet.

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Ahhh.  Thank you.  Some day....

Answer 2

My maternal grand uncle, born Hamburg 1862 immigrated to NYC 1891 thru Castle Island (before there was an Ellis Island) and attended German Churches in NYC where he was married and had children baptized.  I have photo copies of the certificates.  I do not have the names of the German Churches here but when I get to another computer at another location I will let you know the names of the churches.  It would seem there must be City Directories for that borough of NYC which would list churches and their denominations.

Comments

That would be great!

Answer 3

Your ancestor lived at 118 Essex Street from about 1856, and 121 Clinton Street from about 1860.  These addresses are within a few blocks of one another on the Lower East Side, in the district formerly known as Kleindeutschland.  If he was buried at Greenwood, I would guess that he was Protestant and not Catholic.  The most likely Protestant church for him to have attended would be the First German Presbyterian church, which was on Rivington near Ludlow.  The records have been microfilmed by the LDS but must be accessed at a Family History Center:

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/423974

I would recommend looking for the marriage of your ancestor, and/or baptisms of his children, there.

Jim

Comments

The Rivington church only has records before 1954, and my Joseph immigrated about that time. His first census was the 1960 census. I did check, however, and no records were found for John and Josephine, actually NO Schoeppners were found. I agree that the family was likely Protestant and not Catholic, just from my knowledge of the family.

Thank you for that suggestion; wish it had been fruitful.

Don't know how to go about looking for a marriage...probably in Germany before immigrating.

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The Lagis record being referred to in the sources has his place of origin written under „Herkunft“. 

Here is how i would do it; I would enter this name into the German directory of place names for genealogists here http://gov.genealogy.net/search/index.

Then click on the place name and follow it. Then look at the location article that explains what church books and genealogic resources exist for that place. If none are listed, use the breadcrumb navigation at the top of the Genwiki page. Do this again if no sources are listed on the page for the higher-level place.

Sven

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I have looked for a marriage for them.  Not found one in the USA.  Likely they married before coming to the USA.

Thank you for your suggestions.

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There are NO records for "Herkunft" at the place you suggested.  (http://gov.genealogy.net/search/index.)

Not sure what you intended me to try, but this one did not work.

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Please document under Research Notes where you have looked, citing the exact locations

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The Lagis record tells you the origin of the person, in German “Herkunft”. So this is a place name. You can search for that place name in Genwiki and Familysearch to see what sources exist for that place. For example for Fulda https://wiki.genealogy.net/Fulda you would find that the Catholic Church books are at Matricula the Protestant ones are at archion.

The problem: there is no evidence he was from Kauppen, Fulda, Höf und Haid, or Darmstadt presented in the profile, also there is no evidence presented about his second given name.

To break through a emigrant brick wall you will need to be very exact on the US sources you have and present all the evidence that exists, please.

Answer 4

Distribution of surname SCHOEPPNER - Germany Surname Map (kartezumnamen.eu)  try this surname locator