Y-DNA and mutated haplogroups

+3 votes
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I manage my brother's Y-DNA 111 kit on FTDNA. I added him to the Goforth surname project on the site. My brother's "predicted" haplogroup is J-M172. There is one member of the group with a "confirmed" J-M172 and the others have mutated to J-FT201943 or J-FT200913. My brothers may change as well when I upgrade to the big Y.

Ouestion 1. All J2 members of the group named the same paternal ancestor, George Goforth, 1565-1663. If we all have the same common ancestor, how is it some have changed Y-DNA STR markers and others haven't?  I'm talking about the confirmed only.

2. Was our ancestor George's haplogroup J-M172 or could it have mutated as well. I know it can't be J-FT201943, that common ancestor was not born until 1684 ce. But I guess his could have been J-FT200913, that common ancestor was born in 1166 ce?
WikiTree profile: OH Goforth
in Genealogy Help by OH Goforth G2G Rookie (250 points)

1 Answer

+2 votes
 
Best answer

Hi OH,

good questions.

Firstly, the "confirmed" status on FTDNA just indicates whether the individual has tested, and had confirmed, the specific SNP mutations that define the haplogroup.

Looking at the Goforth group results shows that the individual with the "confirmed" J-M172 haplogroup has only tested to 11 STRs (which is nowhere near enough to confirm) - so must have separately bought a SNP pack to confirm. The SNP pack is not as good as a Big Y - so has confirmed a haplogroup that is very old (much further up the tree at 25,000 BCE according to this page).

From this page you can see that J-FT201943 (about 1700CE) is derived from J-FT200913 (about 1150CE), and they are both derived from J-M172.

You will note that all of those ages are older than the given common ancestor, so that could indicate three things:

  1. The age estimate is wrong,
  2. The required mutations have happened more than once
  3. There are not enough testers to name derivative haplogroups

To answer your questions:

  1. Each birth has the potential for mutation in both STRs and SNPs (I have  STR differences to my father, for instance). These happen more slowly in SNPs than in STRs. The SNPs are what defines haplogroups. So, I would suggest the J-M172 result is just that they haven't tested enough SNPs to refine it further, and the J-FT201943/FT200913 results are because someone along the line picked up a few extra mutations and passed them down their specific line.
  2. George is almost certainly lower down the tree than J-M172 - that haplogroup is so old that mutations must have occurred. He would be a parent branch of the modern groups, most likely, as SNP mutations occur roughly about once or twice per century (as I understand it).
by Chris Willoughby G2G6 Mach 2 (24.2k points)
selected by OH Goforth

In addition, for a haplogroup to be given a name, there must be at least two individuals with the same mutations.

Despite having a Big Y test, I was assigned a haplogroup that was 4000 years old. When I tested my father a new haplogroup was created just for us (wasn't that nice smiley). It's only 120 years old - with it's parent haplogroup 4000 years old. We remain isolated from the rest of the tested population by 48 mutations - but at least we're together.

Great answer, thank you

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