Comments on Alice (Glover) Bates

Question

On 30 May 2022 Anonymous Baker wrote on Glover-533:

According to the Will of Dame Anne Glover, widow of Sir William Glover knight (made 25th November 1612) her daughter was "Alice Burradell" not Alice Bates. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D904660; PROB 11/121/134; Will of Dame Anne Glover, Widow of London; Date: 09 February 1613.

Alice Glover, the daughter of  William Glover, Dyer, was baptised at All Hallows the Less in the City of London on 6th August 1592.

Whilst an Alice Glover married a James Bate/s  on 26th September 1603 in Kent, it was not the daughter of Sir William Glover who is identified as the wife of Mr Burradell in the Will of her mother Dame Anne Glover widow on 25th November 1612 at the same time that Alice Bate/s nee Glover was producing Bate/s babies in Lydd, Kent.

Suggestion is to create a new Alice Glover as the wife of James Bate/s and leave Glover-533 as spouse of Mr Burradell.  Thoughts welcome

Comments

Thanks for posting this topic.

I'm posting this as a comment rather than an "answer" since more research is warranted (big surprise).  Ann Browning very helpfully added more records in comments to Alice Glover's profile and I think there are actually three Alice Glovers we need to sift between.  One of Maidstone and one of Lydd, Kent; both born 1583 with the Lydd one being the obvious candidate for marriage to James Bates.  Then the 1592 Alice Glover of London although we haven't been able to turn up her Barradell/Barrowdale/etc marriage yet.  Both Alice of London and Alice of Maidstone had father William; Alice of Lydd had father Richard.

I should clarify my "sifting" comment: Currently Alice Glover-533 shows birth in Maidstone, marriage in Lydd and parents of Sir William and Dame Ann making her a conflation of three different Alice Glovers.  So, opinions welcome on what we do with the current Glover-533?  

Leave her as wife of James Bates and change her to born in Lydd and add new parents?

Leave her as daughter of Sir William & Dame Ann, add husband Unknown Buradell (maybe Thomas) and create a new wife for James Bates?

Either one is probably about the same amount of work.  She was imported as wife of James Bates (born 1583) and then the first edit was to make her daughter of William & Ann, so "original intent" of the profile was already conflated on day 1.

Answer 1

First job would be to disconnect Alice from  William and Ann snd attach the correct parent(s). THe details of the children appear to be correct as far as baptisms go but there are a couple missing who died in infancy.

I think I found a possible marriage of Maidstone Alice in Headcorn but it's not certain.

I have searched and can't find the Burradell marriage but it happened before 1612. I haven't had the chance or the energy to read Sir William Glover's will to see if he mentions Alice to check whether she was married before 1604.

I would disconnect Alice, put Richard as father and put research notes pointing out the other Alice Glovers.

Ann

Answer 2

As it can be shown that Alice Glover-533 is not the daughter of Sir William and Dame Ann Glover, I agree that her profile should be disconnected from these parents and a new profile be created for Alice Glover born 1592 and married to Mr Burradell.  How can this be processed?

Ann Browning - In Sir William Glover's will of 17th October 1603 he only identifies his married 'daughter Roberts' (plus her husband and their daughter Ann) - his unmarried offspring are 'my six children now living'.  It is only Dame Ann Glover, in her will of 25th November 1612, who refers to 'my daughter Alice Burradell' and lists the items of plate she is to receive.

Comments

I have the wills of some other family members that I can check tomorrow possibly one may mention a sister or cousin.. BHO may have some info on Sir William and associated names.
 For the moment I would just disconnect Alice and not bother about creating Sir William’s daughter but leave a research note on Alice once disconnected and say not to be reconnected, or alternatively create her but leave a research note about marriage and married name . I have searched for the marriage and haven’t found it
Ann

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So it seems like the consensus (of two anyway) is to leave Alice Glover-533 as wife of James Bates and proceed with edits accordingly (disconnect parents, fix christening information, add research notes etc).  Ann, I saw the note you added to her profile from the Bates side, thanks.  Since you two did the bulk of the research I don't mind doing the edits.

Along with that, creation of up to 2 new Alice Glover profiles with what details we know of them; one of Maidstone (1583) and one of London (1592).  I'd rather create the profiles now to get something in place with accurate sourcing just to help make sure nobody comes along later and re-conflates them.  I'm sure the Sir William and Dame Ann as parents of Alice, wife of James Bates the New England immigrant is spread far & wide across the internet already.

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Yes it’s all over ancestry and I would imagine family search as well. Thor’s FS ancestor pages are a real curse as if you don’t know they use family trees which often aren’t sourced properly but the page gives the impression it’s solid research.

Ann

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Ah for once FS ancestors have got something better but still no doubt based on unsourced trees but they do have father correct. Off to eat my hat!

https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/MW4N-XD2/alice-glover-1583-1657

Ann

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Well, considering there are probably at least half a dozen "Alice Glovers" on FS born 1583 in Kent, it's nice that at least ONE of them has some good information ;)

I've created Alice of Maidstone as Glover-8721, she died as a child so at this point I have not bothered to create her father but I did find and note some of her family members.

Also Alice of London now created as Glover-8722 and associated with Sir William & Dame Ann as parents.

Also Alice of Lydd, (wife of James Bates) now associated with newly created father Richard Glover-8724. Her mother was likely Alice Ward  who may have died in 1641 but there were enough Glovers bouncing around Lydd and Old Romney that I don't want to over-reach.

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But wait...that FS profile does have a father named "Richard" as father of Alice Glover, but they have his wife as Beatrice based on christenings 150 miles away in Lincolnshire...big sigh...Richard of Lydd's wife was Alice Ward but I haven't been able to find that much more about her other than possibly a 1641 burial but it didn't say "widow of Richard" or anything.  The Lydd and Old Romney parish register entries are pretty skimpy, at least the transcriptions.

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Oh dear, well they got father correct at least. I have contacted FS in the past and said their Ancestor pages have incorrect information and are misleading. There is so much incorrect information about anyway though. At least we’ve got it right on wikitree now.

Ann

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Still fleshing these out a bit, I noticed that Cokayne (cited on William's profile) incorrectly said (not a surprise) that Alice died unmarried before Oct 1603.  She was clearly alive as she was listed on Sir WIlliam's monument inscription and also listed by name in her mother's 1612 will.  Followup - I think Cokayne mis-understood Sir William's will when he listed his married "daughter Roberts" and his OTHER "six children now living".  Cokayne probably thought he meant a TOTAL of six children now living and Alice being the youngest of seven, assumed she had died by Oct 1603 when the will was written.

The interesting part is that Cokayne said that Dame Anne Glover had an IPM on 12 James 1 so 1615 or 16 I think?  He didn't give the date but listed it as "Middlesex & London"

Editing my earlier comment, the IPMs for Ann is easily found at national archives (uk) but is ot digitized.  Anne is C 142/342/88.  Any chance you will be at Kew any time soon?

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I agree with the reasoning regarding William's children.

Re: Anne's IPM - I have put it on my to-do list for the next time I go to Kew, hopefully sometime soon, will let you know.  I notice Cokayne dates it 12. Jac. I, whereas National Archives dates it 11 James I.

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Unfortunately my days of whizzing up to Kew for records is past as I find the drive too much now. It might possibly be on the AALt site. I’ve have a look.

Ann

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That would be great.  I'm on the wrong side of the ocean for a visit...I can't decide if she was more likely to have married John Borrodell who had a wife Alice, or Thomas Borradell who had a daughter Alice by an un-known wife.  My money is on one of the two of them but it's hard to find many records of them.  I get a few hits at the nat. archives in the early/mid 1600s for lawsuits but nothing that is really helpful and not generally digitized.

There was one entry from 1662 for a multi-party suit about lands in Cheshire that included John Borrodell and "Anne Glover, widow" but it was after the death of the John who buried a wife "Alice" so likely a later generation.  Although the text of that suit might mention inheritance or parents or something.  Maybe this was the Anne Meautys who married William Glover Jr, brother of Alice Glover Borrodell and this John Borrodell was son of John Borrodell (Sr) and Alice Glover Borrodell so an estate dispute between aunt and nephew?  That one was C 10/66/70.  Followup - looks like not Anne Meautys Glover, she died of smallpox in 1628.

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It’s always looking on waalt as more and more is going on there and also on aalt if you know what you are looking for.

Ann