Byrd/Bird DNA Question

+6 votes
287 views
I am new to DNA, so am wondering, can a person be more than one Haplogroup?  I see that the "Westover Byrds" are Haplogroup G in the Byrd/Bird DNA study on FamilyTreeDNA, while another line of Byrd/Bird is R1b.  https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/byrd/about/results   (other lines exist, but these two are joined here on Wikitree)

I thought you were one or another, but perhaps that is wrong?

On Wikitree, someone has connected the R1b line to the G line ancestors.  Is it possible this is correct?  If not, how do we know where in the line to disconnect?

R1b:  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Byrd-1332

G:  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bird-4582
in The Tree House by Cheryl Cruise G2G6 Pilot (188k points)
retagged by Peter Roberts

2 Answers

+5 votes
 
Best answer
You're correct, Cheryl. At higher level clades, you are either one or the other. A yDNA haplogroup of G won't have had a common patrilineal ancestor with someone in the R haplogroup since roughly 50,000 years ago.

As the branches of the haplotree become more recent and are designated by the name of a defining SNP (e.g., R-BY164339, R-FGC13328), care has to be taken to analyze all the synonymous SNPs at each branch in order to evaluate whether or not there was a common ancestor in the genealogical timeframe. But at more distant levels, even something like R-P312 and R-U106 won't be genealogically related.

As for how to find in the current tree where the mistake resides, that I couldn't say without a fair bit of research...both the traditional paper trail and DNA, too. Complicating it a bit, it seems that no WikiTreer who is claiming descent from either of the two profiles you've noted have indicated they've taken a yDNA test.
by Edison Williams G2G6 Pilot (446k points)
selected by Cheryl Cruise

Thank you so much for your informative and helpful reply.  I understand this much more clearly now.

Is the information on FamilyTreeDNA useful to solve this puzzle?  Two descendants from two different sons of John Byrd  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Byrd-1332  tested and their results are included in the Byrd DNA study results on that site, along with the (unverified) trees they submitted.  They are marked as Lineage 5 in the study.

The G Haplogroup also has two lines represented in the study, diverging after William Byrd III   https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Byrd-621

At first glance, the difficulty I see with the information at the Byrd DNA Project is that the very basic, user-reported lineages aren't matched to the individual test kits. For example, there are four kits in "Haplogroup G - Lineage 1," only two of which name a believed earliest known ancestor. The pedigrees at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/byrd/about/results don't offer the ability to determine which test kit is associated with which pedigree; they're all simply clustered under the Group heading.

An aside is that the text we see there in bold red (e.g., B-26, B-49, SM-1) is almost certainly from the two-years-defunct WorldFamilies.net. I suspect that's where the pedigrees came from, and those red-text designations used to be what associated test kits with pedigrees.

Without knowing which kit claims to match which lineage, we can't really make any progress there. And FTDNA offers contact capability only to customers who match each other, and to the Project administrators, providing the test-taker has granted them that level of access. It's going to take some digging. Requesting via one of the Project admins that your email address be given to the relevant test takers in order to compare notes could be a start.

But there's an additional difficulty even within the two G haplogroups Lineage 1 and Lineage 2. The problem is that the Project admin has, correctly based upon the STR (simple tandem repeat) values, broken them into two distinct groups. By my cursory look, and using the modal values for "Haplogroup G - Lineage 1," at 37 markers kit 101394 in Group 2 would be a genetic distance of 11, and kit 312542 would be a GD of 13 from the members in Lineage 1. Family Tree won't call 37-marker results as a match at all if they are more distant than a GD of 4.

While nothing is impossible, based on those STR differences I would presume it extremely unlikely that the two sets of men shared a patrilineal ancestor in the genealogical timeframe. Their common ancestor would be several hundreds if not more than a thousand years prior to the ancestor dates shown. We really can't make anything of the SNP data unless at least one of the test-takers in "Haplogroup G - Lineage 2" takes a Big Y test. Haplogroup G currently contains 1,262 branches, and 1,124 of them are under G-P15, the deepest tested SNP in that Lineage 2; so kit 101394 being P15 positive doesn't tell us much.

"Haplogroup R1b-Lineage 5" looks to be internally consistent, again at a quick glance only, but none of the men have done deep testing with the Big Y.

Given the above, I think there are at least three genetic disconnects in these lines, not two. Each of the three groupings as the administrators show them on the detailed results page represents a distinct patrilineal line. So I think I may have managed to make it more complicated, not less.
indecision

This is very helpful, thank you so much.  I've been trying to find the WorldFamilies site you mentioned, after seeing references to it here in G2G regarding other Byrd DNA questions.  I hadn't realized it was defunct, so I appreciate that information as well.  

My line is the R1b Lineage 5, but it is my grandmother's mother, so we cannot help with yDNA testing.  

Thank you again for taking the time to explain something that is new to me.  I would love to know where to remove our line from the "Westover" Byrds, but now realize it doesn't seem possible yet.  I am personally only confident of Thomas Alexander Bird and his descendants, a bit less so of his father, and in the dark about ancestors further up the tree.  https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bird-3914
+5 votes

A male can’t belong to more than one major Y haplogroup. He can belong to direct paternal line subhaplogroups of G or R but something is wrong with the genealogy if one Byrd belongs to the G haplogroup and his known Byrd cousin belongs to the R haplogroup.

See the R-L21 haplogroup at http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html?snp=S1026&tab=snps It descends from R-M269 and every haplogroup in that line above R-L21.  A Bird could be R-L21 and his Bird cousin could be R-M269.  The M269 guy is likely L21 but his haplogroup was not reported as precisely.

It is easier to use haplotype matching (e.g. matching on 34 out of 37 markers) to determine relatedness in a genealogical timeframe.

by Peter Roberts G2G6 Pilot (711k points)
Thank you, this is very helpful.  I appreciate the link!

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