Question

Looking for my ggf. GM name was Lily Rogers but I don't believe that was her real name. Born out of wedlock

Comments

Pam, could you tell us what you already know, and what you think might be.  It helps us to help you if we know what you already know, and even what you think.

Are there profiles for these people, or are you still working up to that?

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thanks for your response.  my gm Lily was born in nottinghamshire in 1887 supposedly to my great grandmother amy rogers and her husband thomas rogers, however, thomas died in 1881 so that leaves him out.  All of Lilys documents that i have found so far show thomas as her father.  I am not really sure amy is her mother to be exact.  I do share dna with amy's birth name saddington so i hope that she is the mother.  I have looked at every lily i can find in the birth records and haven't found anyone to match.  I do have some distant dna relatives that are attached to the wells, smiths, and potter families but i haven't been able to verify those either. I was wondering if there could be other documents i could research that aren''t on any of the ancesttry type sights like lease agreements or bank notes or something that could give me more info on amy and her activites before my grandmother was born.

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The only Nottinghamshire birth record I can find on the GRO for Lily Rogers 1887, has mother's last name as Cheetham.

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yes i know and i have checked her out and its not her.  besides gro is there any other way i can be searching? Amy would have had a 7yr old at home so i doubt she would have gone very far to have Lily.  thoughts on bank notes etc.

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Have you tried FamilySearch?  You do need to register, but actually using the site is free.

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yes i haven't been on in a while but i could look again.  I just thought i would try you folks.

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Have you tried looking for records of things like affiliation cases? (where Amy might have tried to get Lily’s father to take some responsibility). Searching local newspapers might help. What do the local archives have?

Was Lily born at home or somewhere like a workhouse for which there might be useful records?

If you’ve done a DNA test then have you tried grouping your matches to work out which ones are from Lily’s side?

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i haven't heard of affiliation cases.  I don't know if she was born at home or not.  amy had like 6 children and the youngest was 7 when lily was born.  i did try the nazerous house orphanage and got nothing there. i have gone on GRO and researched every way I could and on ancestry too.  It might even be that amy is not her mother but I have saddington and richards in my dna and any was a saddington. yes the mathches are not working so well as this was in the 1880s.  any close members that are there don't respond.

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Maybe you should buy a copy of her birth certificate? If she was born out of wedlock it might not help that much, but it's possible it'll tell you something useful. It's only £7 for a PDF copy.

Re: affiliation cases, here is a (very short) account of one that my great-great grandmother brought in 1889. (the case was dismissed but if I was a descendant of her son, I'd be examining my DNA matches for anyone related to the man accused of being the father)

DNA could help you solve the mystery so it's worth reading up a bit on the best way to approach that. Like you say, a lot of people don't respond to enquiries so you have to do the research yourself. If you're on Facebook, this is a useful group to join to ask questions. 

Feel free to send me a message if you want some help.

Answer 1

Ancestry has done a dreadful job on transcribing this household, but here she is in the 1891 census in Snenton, Nottinghamshire. Amy is the head of the household, and the youngest daughter is Linian N.H. Rogers. Neither FamilySearch nor FreeCen has this portion of the 1891 census online yet.
https://www.ancestry.com.au/sharing/22571930?h=90a067

The National Archives of the UK (TNA); Kew, Surrey, England; Census Returns of England and Wales, 1891; Class: RG12; Piece: 2706; Folio: 30; Page: 8; GSU roll: 6097816

I can't find a birth registration or baptism for her.

Comments

yeah weird right.  the only other thing i can think of is her name was different

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yes the N.H. in that has really thrown me.  that led to me looking at nazereth house but no luck there.  I have purchase a couple of birth certificates and i do have my dna out there.  on the afffilation cases where do i find that info?

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Re: affiliation cases, I found them in local newspapers via British Newspaper Archive. Perhaps the local archives will have suggestions for you too.

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thanks i will check

Answer 2

Lily (Rogers) Cox (ca. 1887-1954)

1887–1954 • LKSK-4PT​​

•••

She's shown on FamilySearch as the daughter of Thomas and Amy (Saddington) Rogers. Thomas was alive in the 1881 census. 

For the 1910 census, Lily Rogers was living with her sister, Sarah and her brother-in-law John Thorpe. That record shows her immigration year as 1895. 

Apparently later that year, Lily and Thomas Cox were married 27 Nov 1910 in Lake, Ohio. Lily's estimated birth year is given as 1884 and confirms Nottingham, England, but her parents are not described. Her husband was the son of Charles and Elizabeth Ann (Richards) Cox, and he was a widow at the time of the marriage. 

To a certainty, Amy's husband predeceased her, as her death record shows her as widowed ("Ohio Deaths, 1908-1953," database with images, [https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XZNJ-2Z8 FamilySearch]: 15 Aug 2019, Thomas Rogers in entry for Amy Rogers, 04 Apr 1936; citing Kirtland, Lake, Ohio, reference fn 25904; FHL microfilm 2,022,658.).

A FindAGrave record shows her as Lily (Cox) Nelson with a headstone, (ca. 1886-1954).

Lastly, I'll see if I can locate that 1891 census record, as it may prove additional relationships. The 1900 (US) or 1901 England census might be pivotal, too.

Comments

Thanks for all your work but Thomas Rogers is not her father that is who I'm trying to figure out.

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What evidence is there for Thomas' death in 1881?

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Death certificate. I thought a cousin posted it. I'll see if I have it. Sorry.

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That would be good, thank you. I cannot find any evidence for the death of a Thomas Rogers In Nottinghamshire born 1855 +/- 5 years who died 1886 +/- 5 years.

Answer 3

Lily's father, Thomas Rogers, a silk thrower, was last proven to be alive in 1881: [1) "England and Wales Census, 1881," database with images, FamilySearch: 12 Dec 2017, Thomas Rogers, Richmond Street: Nottingham St Mary, Nottinghamshire, England; from "1881 England, Scotland and Wales Census," database and images, findmypast (www.findmypast.com); citing p. 3, Piece/Folio 3359/64, The National Archives, Kew, Surrey; FHL microfilm 101,774,977; and 2) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQMK-5YK /PRO RG 11/3359 / 64], but that does not mean that was the year that he died. All of their children are shown as being born in Nottingham, through Joseph.

The 1891 record shows his wife as a Lace Hand widow, with all of the listed children matching in age with prior children, but with the addition of "Linian," presumptively matching to Lilian/Lily, at Crown Street, Sneinton St Stephen, Nottinghamshire, England, United Kingdom. So it is entirely possible that someone put the father as deceased after 1881, just leaving off that he was last proven to be alive in 1881; whereas, it is highly likely that he was alive long enough to father Lily.

Comments

Lily was born in 1887.

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i posted thomas rogers death certificate on ancestry

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In which of the 78 trees containing Thomas Rogers did you post it?

Can you not transcribe it here?

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Ancestry "attachments" as sources are only useful to those with subscriber access. So I agree that the transcription could help us ensure that the death record matches.

The census that last showed Mr Rogers alive is linked to his FamilySearch profile that I described, previously.

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how do i insert the document into this message. i don't know what the url is

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Just transcribe it. There's not that much information on an English death certificate.

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Ok I was going to post it.  Ok will do later.  So I'm still stuck without a great grandfather.

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Ok Thomas Rogers death certificate.  The town of Nottingham Byron sub district.  1881

April 8 1881 28 richmond st.  Thomas Rogers 35yrs silk thrower  death by phthisis Pulmonalis 1 yr Certified by e.c. hynes. Amy rogers present at the death. Registered april 11 1881.  J. Hunt registrar  he died of tuberculosis

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So it was registered in the district but not forwarded to the GRO. Well that settles it. Thomas can't be Lily's father.

Answer 4

Pam, I have not looked elsewhere, but does Amy Rogers have a daughter old enough to be the mother of the child, married or not? Was there an informal adoption? I’m sure I have seen something similar in Derbyshire where a child was christened and one of the parents who was long dead was named on the christening record. From memory (as I cannot remember which person), later censuses made it clear who the correct parent was. I know that won’t help you much in finding the father though.

Answer 5

Hello,

I found Lilly Rogers, in 1901, she was 14, born 1887, Father, Joseph Albert Rogers...Mother, Eliza Rogers. Born  Bulwell, Nottinghamshire, England. Civil Parish name of Claycross. The County is Derbyshire, in the Chesterfield registration district  Sub-registration District, Ashover. In the 1901 census, Joseph and Eliza both were 38. Edith 17yrs, Lilly 14yr. Joseph A. 11 yrs. Gladys 2, Rosie was 6-12 months. Then it looks like dad lived there, Noah Rogers 61yrs. Also, look up Arthur Hodkin 36 yr., Mary W Ward 27yrs. Frederick Turton, 42yr, Frances Turton 39 yrs. and William H and Florence L Clarke, he was 33 and Flo was26! Source Citation Class: RG13; Piece: 3243; Folio: 65, Page: 18, Ancestry.com. 1901 England Census,

Best wishes,

I have so much descendants and relatives over there, thought she might have been in my tree branch!

Kim Stokley-105

Comments

Thanks for all your hard work but that's not her. She was with Amy rogers in the 1891 census and arrived in the USA in1895.  The father that is listed on her documents is Thomas Rogers but he was dead in 1881 and she was born in 1887.  I also have no DNA lines to the rogers family. So I'm looking for Lily's father.