Is James "of Bucks County" Carter a Quaker? Are these the right sources?

Question

There are some conflicting facts about James' profile and I've opened this thread as a place for profile managers, descendants, and interested parties to discuss changes to the profile.

An excerpt from one of the profile comments:

The source:

Katheder, Thomas, "James Carter Sr. (1743-1812) of Loudoun County, Virginia: Newly Discovered Family Bible Helps Unravel Carter Conundrum." Vol 41 1997, Pages 83-86) The Virginia Genealogist. Washington, DC: J. F. Dorman, 1957 - 2006.

is used 9 times to cite facts in this profile. The source is behind a paywall. When it was added to this profile was this article consulted or were these facts copied from another webpage that used this source? If the prior, we need a paraphrase of the publiction. If the latter, we have an incorrect source.

The problem with Katheder is apparant just by looking at the title of the publication. "James Carter Sr. (1743-1812). The James Carter of this profile was born in 1670 and died in 1715. Jame's son (currently attached to this profile) is born in 1704 and died in 1758. He also had a son, James Jr. (would make James 1704-1758 James Sr.?). Certainly, this source is not for this profile.

Was this source added when James was presupposed to be a Quaker?

I think we will need to start from scratch with this profile and re-examine everything and determine if we have the correct dates, family, sources, etc.

Answer 1

I added a "new" biography with primary sources. Hopefully, this will help us to keep clear which James Carter is the subject of this profile. I think I have done all I can to beef up his biography. To my knowledge, I have added all of the primary source material that refers to this James Carter. I know that there is some secondary source info out that there, but it all refers back to the same primary sources.

Once we feel confident that the biography is as complete as possibly, perhaps we can perform a general cleanup.

There is some stuff like "James and Susannah were Quakers and members of the [Opeckan Friends]" (along with the Quaker sticker) that is demonstrably false.

Also, "Occupation Several of the family were millers, including James' son, Joseph and his sons.[7] The family was involved in manufacturing." is not really pertinent to this profile but could be moved to his son's profile. The deeds show that he was a blacksmith by trade.

And the sections "Land Records" and "Death & Legacy" are redundant since those facts are mentioned and sourced in the bio.

I welcome any comments and suggestions.

Jason

Answer 2

I've printed first part of the Katheder article. Let me know on what else you need corroboration.

James Carter Sr b 16 Sep 1743 (citation family bible which is the subject of the article--interesting story on the bible).

First appears in Loudoun Co records 1764 when purchased 292 acres. Bible sheds no light on origins of James Carter Sr. List of several predecessors who are now ruled out by evidence. Can list if needed.

Peter Carter of Loudoun County not connected to this man.

Not a descendant of James Carter and Susannah Griffith of Bucks, Penn.  Long discussion of possibility, based on Quaker records and onomastics that Henry Carter is his father.

James and Hannah were disowned in 1765 because of their marriage: Hinshaw VI:481.

Comments

Sadly, I had thought this might be the case.  This may be the same with the other sources.  We will need to remove this source to the research notes, remove from the profile the facts that were supposedly proven by this source, and continue to develop this profile.

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Egads, left out answer to premise of your question. Katheder is writing about the James Carter, a generation later, who is not the son of the couple in Bucks. So, if this article is being applied to the couple in Bucks then the citation is appears entirely wrong unless it is being used to disprove a relationship between James b 1743 and James of Bucks.

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The source is being used to prove that the James of this profile was born in England, between 1670 and 1680, that he was married to Susannah Griffith, etc.  It looks like that this source was used incorretly and indiscriminately.

And thanks for the record pull!

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The only evidence I have for James Carter being from England is the US and International Marriage Records 1560-1900 (Ancestry.com). Unfortunately this record is from pedigree charts, so it cannot be even considered a secondary record.

Answer 3

If this tree is correct, then I would be a descendant of him (7th g-grandfather). My DNA haplogroup according to Family Tree DNA is I-M253. If other descendants match the same Y-DNA, then perhaps the information is correct. At least, we'd know if we don't match, then the information apparently is not correct.

Comments

I had thought I was working on a project profile but if the tree is correct he is also my 8th great-grandfather.  Byron, if you happen to read this, please sign up to Wikitree and set up an account - I'd love to compare DNA with you.

Answer 4

Where are we on getting this profile sorted? It has been over a year, and it looks like the same incorrect sources are still being used. I would be more than happy to help get this James Carter properly sourced. Currently, the profile states that James and his wife were members of the Quaker community in Frederick County, Virginia. However, it is also shown that he died in 1715, well before his sons moved off to Virginia.

All the best,

Jason

Comments

Jason, I’ll review this the thread above sometime tomorrow.

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Let's discuss the changes here and then make them.

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Personally, I think the first place to start would be to write a biography using primary source documents that establish exactly who we are talking about here. I have access to sources establishing that James Carter married Susannah Griffith, daughter of John Griffith, in 1702; that he was a blacksmith; and that he was the father of William Carter, John Carter, James Carter, Richard Carter, Joseph Carter, Benjamin Carter, and Ann Carter. Assuming an age of twenty five when he married, he would have been born about 1677. Although it is likely he was born in England, it seems to me it would be best to leave his birthplace blank for now.

 

I think the next step would be to look at the sources that are presented and removed those that are irrelevant. Most of them are either dead links, links to unsourced trees, or wholly unrelated. If those sources were removed along with the statements they purport to prove, then I think we would have made a valiant effort to create a concise, factual profile.

 

Also, the primary sources make it obvious that James Carter was not a Quaker. That sticker should go.

 

These are just my thoughts on the matter.

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That sounds like a great start.

So that we don't lose the 'old bio' in case we find some conflation and want to move it to a different profile and/or just for reference purposes, I've moved the whole of the bio to the research notes.  Lets leave the 'old bio' in the notes unchanged so that we can reference it as the new bio is built.

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Sounds good to me!

If it works for you, I will write up a basic bio with the sources I have, and we can go from there.

Answer 5

The Carters were NOT Quakers.  Susannah Griffith was disowned for marrying James Carter, blacksmith.  Susannah temporarily regained membership after marrying Robert Heaton, but was disowned when a child was born 6 mo later.  Second son John married quaker Alice Nelson who was then disowned.  Alice regained her status as quaker after marrying    Joseph Yates and moving to western Loudon Co. VA.  Her son James married Hannah Eblin who was also disowned.  James and Hannah's son Asa married his first cousin Cynthia Parker who was then disowned. Carters lived among quaker communities for three generations but were not members, subsequent generations moved to Ohio then westward into non-quaker communities.

Comments

This may help understand what may and may not have happened to those disowned. 

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1400595/understanding-quaker-disownment