Genetic Detective TV Series CeCe Moore

+23 votes
982 views
in The Tree House by Laura Bozzay G2G6 Pilot (839k points)
Leake, no one has said that DNA should be the only evidence used to convict.  Of course, the suspect must also have been shown to be in the time and place of the crime, or to have had the opportunity to be.  If you know of any conviction where that has not been true, please cite your evidence.

DNA is more accurate than many other types of evidence traditionally relied on such as fingerprints or eye-witness identification (the latter notoriously inaccurate).  The accused don't have to give permission to use those types of evidence, so why DNA?

The forensic genealogy results are not considered evidence, but investigative leads. Even defense attorneys seem to accept this. 

https://www.genomeweb.com/scan/genetic-genealogy-court-sort#.XsAIHWhKhPY

Ann, FYI, when I tried that link, it said I had to sign up and log in in order to read the article; that turned out to be impossible.

Oh, sorry about that. GenomeWeb is always tricky, but I got in OK so I thought it would work. There are many other articles that may/may not be behind a paywall. I'll quote section from a WIRED article

“Our position has always been that the genealogy stuff is not relevant,” Talbott’s defense attorney Rachel Forde said in an interview outside the courtroom Tuesday morning. She says they plan to treat it just like any other tip police might get, and focus on arguing that the presence of Mr. Talbott’s DNA on the hem of the pants belonging to one of the victims does not mean he committed either of the murders. “This way we don’t have to deal with all the other shiny bells and whistles. Neither us nor the state wanted this to be a three-week advertisement for a corporation.”

https://www.wired.com/story/a-murder-trial-will-allow-dna-evidence-from-a-genealogy-site/

Thanks.
Exactly, well said Julie, never the only evidence.  We could argue this with the opposers from now on, and unfortunately until a close family member or friend of THEIRS, is raped, or murdered they will never see the value in the use of DNA evidence no matter how it be attained. But if it happens in their would they suddenly would be the first to champion use of whatsoever means necessary to convict and justly punish the correct offender!!!
Nope.
I was so excited so I went to schedule my Dish dvr to start taping it and their tv schedule is not showing it on there.  I will be so mad if they have messed up again.  It is showing on my TV Guide though so I can only hope.
It's been rescheduled to May 26th.
Website now says it will debut on May 26 a Tuesday 10 pm - 11 pm EDT

7 Answers

+12 votes
Oooo, cool Laura. Thanks for this!
by Pip Sheppard G2G Astronaut (2.7m points)
+10 votes
I had seen CeCe's announcement about this.  While I don't watch much television, I'm hoping to get a chance to watch this!
by Darlene Athey-Hill G2G6 Pilot (545k points)
+8 votes
I'm just hoping it doesn't create another knee-jerk negative reaction, both by the uninformed and the conspiracy theorists.
by John Beardsley G2G6 Mach 4 (44.8k points)
Your hopes are high....
I know. CeCe is very good and I totally support what she is doing by supporting law enforcement with her research, BUT it was her activity in that arena that was generating the fear and anger within the "privacy" community to begin with.
Maybe the reaction is honest and true because the activity is fundamentally wrong - these data were never legally shared for these purposes. There is nothing noble in this pursuit - results or no.

Law enforcement is allowed to use publically available information in investigations, and to do so without informing the parties who made that information available. They have been searching social media sites like Facebook for quite a while and do not require any special permissions to do so. The information Cece uses has been made available by the individuals who made their own results publically available by uploading those results with the intention to share and compare with other parties. Those individuals have the option not to allow certain parties, such as law enforcement, to view their results.

It seems to me that those who object to what Cece is doing want more than just the ability to prevent her from seeing and using their results, they want the power to prevent her from seeing and using everybodies results whether or not the owner's of results have opted in to allowing their results to be used as Cece is doing.

You are wrong Leake when you state " . . . these data were never legally shared for these purposes". Everyone who, like myself, have opted in to allowing our results to be used in this manner HAVE legally allowed this use. Anyone who opts in in the future will be able to give or deny informed consent to this use. I suspect that will never be enough for you though, will it? So the issue that remains is, do your rights not to have your publically available results used (if any such rights exist) negate my rights to allow that use?

At some point I'm sure the top courts will have to rule on the subject, it'll be interesting to see how they'll rule and the justification they'll provide.

Nope John - the majority of male DNA results have been tested and results posted by women. At least that's what the customer data would show prior to terms and conditions permitting these uses, any opt-in or opt-out, etc. Inasmuch as this is true then many of the genetic results in online databases were never licensed. I'm not arguing privacy or the legality of using genealogy data - I'm saying that private property has been exappropriated from individuals without their legal consent to use. Much of this accumulation of data was done under different circumstances than law enforcement purposes, in fact there was long-standing belief 8 years ago that all genetic data were protected by same legal guidelines controlling the protection of medical data. I am not wrong John but apparently that does not discourage you or others from wishing to tell me so. That's rather judgemental don't you think? When subjects get so one-sided that we can marginalize legitimate opinion I rest my case.
Leake, you are saying things that are not true*, then accusing others of being judgmental and "marginalizing" you.  I manage over a dozen accounts on GEDmatch, most uploaded before the law enforcement controversy.  When GEDmatch adopted the opt-in/opt-out policy, they marked every account as opt-out, and the owner or manager of the DNA had to change it if he wished to opt in.

For every upload I do now (and I do them because some people can't figure out how, or are working from phones and can't do it), I ask the person if they wish to opt in or out, just as I ask them how they want their name listed and about other details.  I believe most people behave honorably when working with DNA information that has been entrusted to them, and if you think not, please provide some evidence.

*Edit:  What I was referring to was what I considered the implication that people who posted their DNA to GEDmatch before the law enforcement controversy are still having their results used by law enforcement without their permission.

Hi Julie - I'm a truth teller! You may not agree but as long as you choose to compartamentalize these issues you will have your own optimism bias. I'm not accusing anyone - I'm saying it happened, and I was not the only one aware of these issues after I became involved in DNA genealogy in late 2013 for the first time. These data were misappropriated widely, for instance www.semargl.me - see Roberta Estes https://dna-explained.com/category/yfull-company/

You and the others on this thread are marginalizing what I have to say, and that is evident from the comments themselves. You are saying that this didn't/can't happen. But it did. All these data got "spilled" into the public domain without any consideration that law enforcement would move outside of it's established lane to misuse these data further.

My point is not that law enforcement is not capable of putting 2+2 together, or that they should ignore DNA evidence in the active investigation of a crime. I'm saying that the Supreme Court is likely to reverse any convictions derived from what Parabon and the ilk are doing presently if law enforcement is involved in the collection of new evidence, etc. The chain of custody, etc. are all important considerations for future cases - but just as heresay is not permitted in court so too would evidence derived by Parabon - except as an expert witness. I object to Parabon or others making money off of data which do not belong to them. Many of the folks who populated these early databases and made the critical mass of data capable for researching these issues (adoptions, cold-cases, etc.) were not aware that law enforcement or Parabon had begun using their data in these ways. Are these permissible uses? Not unless the owners (each individual) are asked and give written permission is what I say. The data were never intended for such a purpose, and many who contributed are now dead.

The last issue is that no one seems to wish to discuss what this does to the efficacy or legitimacy of the law. Of course let's bum-rush the bad guys any way we can, and cold cases are like shooting fish in a barrel (using DNA) vs. the heavy-lifting of solving current cases better. 

fyi - here's what John Beardsley said in reaction to Roberta's story about the misappropriation and misuse of private DNA results 6 years ago:

John Beardsley - 6 years ago

I normally find Ms. Estes' blogs well written and informative. The one in question here however I find to be bigoted fear-mongering. As a de-facto spokesperson for ftdna due to her professional relationship with them, Ms. Estes should refrain from knee-jerk, inflammatory rhetoric. Her troubling over emphasis on the fact that the Semargl website is Russian based seems to be her biggest complaint, other than that she appears to find the website and it's contents useful and well done. I hope the majority of people, currently at 57%, who support and have no problem with the Semargl site convince the operators to bring the site back online as soon as possible.

Leake, I'm going to amend my post above to explain more clearly what I meant, and then stop responding.  By now I think everyone is pretty well set in their opinions, and there are many things to do in life besides arguing all day on G2G.
By all means let's not argue... That would be worse.
Hopefully more a friendly debate :)  and yes, like I said we could go on and on, so I'm out too...  Everyone take care!

{sigh}

I had silently bowed out of this discussion, but as I was the topic of a reply I'll take the liberty to respond to that.

The Semargl website was not profit-making and did not make any other use of the publically available DNA data than many others that provided a free method to compare results to find possible matches. It was widely used and respected long before Roberta Este discovered it, and from every post of her that I read her major complaint was that it was a Russian-based website . . . which, considering that Semargl was Russian, seemed to me to be silly. When she began her hoopla Semargl took down his site, but it returned shortly afterwards after a very vocal wave of support for what his website and it's tools ensued. Calmer heads prevailing and all that . . . .

I very much doubt that the Supreme Court will overturn any cases where Parabon provided assistance to law enforcement. What they use is publically available data, and no case is prosecuted using that data. What Parabon provides is a method to narrow down the possible culprit list, and then law enforcement uses tradition methods of sleuthing to gather evidence usable in court to prosecute the culprit.

Now, if possible, I'll again bow out of this conversation as it seems to be heading towards the realm of a debate with pointing fingers and all such jazz. From where I sit that seems all together too tiring for participating.

+6 votes
According to two blogs I saw this morning (Dick Eastman and Randy Seaver), the debut date has been postponed to June 2.
by Living Kelts G2G6 Pilot (553k points)
Darnit. Well, at least I may be able to watch it realtime then rather than having to DVR it.
Update:  Please see posts elsewhere about new date of May 26.
+9 votes

Just a quick drive-by (still crazy busy). I think it's an important level-set here to be clear that autosomal DNA as tested by our popular, inexpensive, direct-to-consumer services is never used as an evidentiary exhibit in forensic criminal, parentage, or individual identification legal cases. I believe not anywhere in the world, but certainly not in the U.S.

Our common tests use a $5 microarray chip to look at approximately 650,000 autosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms. On average, about 15%-20% of these SNPs are selected for examination because they have possible clinical/medical relevance, meaning they are exonic data and in that part of the genome where all humans are ~99.4% identical. Not useful for individual identification. Too, an average of about 1% of all the SNPs examined by our cheap microarray tests come back as no-calls, meaning that the chip either had a faulty probe at a particular locus, or couldn't accurately determine what nucleotide was present.

I won't say autosomal SNP data will never be used for forensics, but I think whole genome sequencing will be required for that. The SNP data from our genealogy tests cannot be converted to the type of data used in forensics. Apples and oranges.

Forensic DNA relies on autosomal short tandem repeats, or microsatellites, not a relative handful of tested SNPs that are spaced out across the 3.2 billion base pair genome. This is essentially the same type of process that's used to test STRs on the Y chromosome...and one reason it's confusing to some why our autosomal tests cost $49 but a low-level, entry-point Y-STR test costs over $100. STR testing doesn't fragment the DNA with restriction enzymes and use a once-and-done application of the precipitated DNA solution on a microarray chip. A more manually intensive and expensive process is used (traditional Sanger sequencing or similar) to multiply the DNA and then examine, with multiple passes, specific stretches or segments of the chromosomes to accurately count the number of times a nucleotide sequence repeats across pre-identified, contiguous loci.

To sum up, I could give you my raw data results from my Ancestry or FTDNA or 23andMe tests--or all three--and it wouldn't be possible to reconstruct CODIS/NDIS-type forensic STR evidence that would be admissible as an evidentiary exhibit in a court of law. That's not what CeCe and other "forensic genealogists" do. They don't point to an individual and say, "Here's the evidence. Book 'em, Danno." (A throwback reference to the original Hawaii 5-0 TV series; raise your hand if you got it.wink

"Forensic genealogists" do basically the exact same thing as one of our Adoption Angels: they look at possible DNA cousinships and online family trees and deduce the potential branch(es) where the unidentified person might fit based as much--or typically more--on the genealogy and possible geographic locations and broad birth/death/age ranges as the DNA. CeCe merely provides licensed law enforcement officers with a narrowing of the prospect list. A very bad analogy, but: it's like going from "we know there was a getaway car" to "we believe the getaway car was a late model, gray or silver Toyota Camry with Arizona license plates and damage to the driver-side quarter-panel."

CeCe provides a lead pertaining to a cold-case. It's law enforcement that takes that lead, chases it down and investigates it, builds the criminal case, and makes the arrest. Part of that activity will be to obtain a new forensic DNA sample from the suspect...because even if he took an Ancestry DNA test himself and a subpoena gets that raw data from Ancestry, it can't be used as forensic evidence in a criminal case.

I have fingers crossed on both hands that, as John expressed in his answer, the TV series goes a long way to show that nobody has ever been convicted of a crime with info someone uploaded to GEDmatch. Can't be used as forensic evidence. All GEDmatch--and folks like CeCe--can do is be like the tech guy who can use streetlight camera data and some innate smarts to determine the "getaway car" was probably "a silver Toyota Camry with Arizona plates and some fender damage."

by Edison Williams G2G6 Pilot (446k points)
It's exactly the same method I used in 2015 to find my husband's birth father. All we knew from his birth mom was "he was a truck driver named Frank". He tested way back in '07 and closest matches came finally in 2015,  3rd cousin matches in several families. I used them to build out downline branches of a test tree.  Found the man that was a male, middle name Francis, right occupation, in the right place, at the right time, at the right age. He took his mother's maiden name so we had been looking at Jackson match surname for a match from Y testing incorrectly.   Contacted family members and we were pretty sure that we were all right just by talking to them. BUT one of his 1/2 brothers had just sent in his Autosomal test the day before.  Suspense for 3 weeks while we waited on the results... BINGO came back even more centimorgans relationship than a half brother, how can that be ?  Further comparison of trees turns out their mothers were also  3rd cousins!   A month later another 1/2 brother surfaces, but not a cousin also :)   Point being  here like Edison is saying, we did not jump too far ahead of ourselves.   It could have been the wrong leg of the tree.
Thanks Edison.  Enlightening as usual.  Appreciate your  explaining the process.    i see slightly different results in matches from different labs and  with chip chabges also with timing within same lab. To me that would caste some degree of doubt for a  jury.  How can test at 3rd cousins in one lab and 4 to 6th in another?  While we have learned how to work with the variances,  i don't think a jury would be happy with the explanation that different labs test different segments and over time some labs further complicated consistency when a chip change was made.
Agreed. Laura makes some good points. I might add that the history of the introduction of scientific evidence such as finger-prints, etc. have been shown to exaggerate conviction rates, not make them more evidenced-based or just. Studies by legal scholars have shown repeatedly that juries will "over-rely" on new scientific evidenciary techniques and actually rush to convict on that basis alone. Apart from the technicalities of testing or privacy I have concerns that much of the data gathered are not controlled by the real owners of the data and that individual consent is necessary for 3rd party researchers of every kind (adoptions, cold cases, etc.).
+4 votes

Ok everyone, I found the latest news.


image
[05/14/20 - 12:25 PM]
Series Premiere Airdate Change: ABC News Presents New Prime-Time Series "The Genetic Detective"
Originally slated for a May 19 launch, the series will now roll out on Tuesday, May 26.
by Janice Anderson G2G6 (9.4k points)
+3 votes

Ok everyone, I found the latest news.

 
image
[05/14/20 - 12:25 PM]
Series Premiere Airdate Change: ABC News Presents New Prime-Time Series "The Genetic Detective"
Originally slated for a May 19 launch, the series will now roll out on Tuesday, May 26.
by Janice Anderson G2G6 (9.4k points)

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