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Disproven Existence

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Surnames/tags: false_ancestors disproven_existence
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Note - In light of the recently clarified guidelines, this project now has a project box. However, this page has not yet been edited to catch up with that. The process of applying Disproven Existence does not change. However, if you wish for this project to manage the profile, you must use its project box: {{Disproven Existence Project}}

Any profile in the category Disproven Existence should be on WikiTree-52's watchlist (i.e., on the trusted list) and needs a project to be its manager. The Disproven Existence Project is the default project if no other applicable project wishes to manage the profile.

From WikiTree-52:

The project account should be added to either the trusted list or as a profile manager to any profile in Category:Disproven Existence, which is added when the research notes box {{Disproven Existence}} or the project box {{Disproven Existence Project}} is added to the profile. (The project recommends one or the other, not both. If the project is a manager, the project box must be added - see this G2G post. If another project is manager, then WikiTree-52 should be added to the trusted list only.)

This project page currently only talks about the research notes box {{Disproven Existence}} but is not otherwise out of date. ~ Noland-165 18:16, 3 January 2018 (EST)

Contents

Disproven Existence

{{Disproven Existence}} is for profiles of people that research has shown never existed. The purpose of this project is to oversee its use. Disproven Existence is the "next step" for profiles with {{Uncertain Existence}}[1] that have
  1. substantial evidence that the person did not exist (except... see below),
  2. buy-in from profile managers/descendants (e.g., G2G discussion),
  3. project approval (both this project and projects relevant to the profile), and
  4. no "real" profiles attached.
  1. If the profile is not already tagged with {{Uncertain Existence}}, please add it while coordinating 1-4. The exception would be if you are adding {{Disproven Existence}} to a profile for someone whose existence has already been disproven by professional researchers and the profile includes citations to their scholarly, peer-reviewed, published works. Even then, you should first post notice in G2G (tag the surname, disproven_existence, and appropriate project or projects).

    Note: If the profile is included in (and categorized under) a known fraud or fabrication, that is sufficient proof to meet #1. It remains sufficient unless substantial evidence that the person existed is presented during discussion (#2).
{{Disproven Existence}} should only be used on profiles that have been disconnected from the proven line. Profiles that have not yet been disconnected from the valid lineage should use {{Uncertain Existence}}.

Details

Note: {{Disproven Existence}} is designed to replace {{Uncertain Existence}}. The difference in the messages is small but important:

Uncertain Existence: Research suggests that this person may never have existed. See the text for details.
Disproven Existence: Research has shown that this person never existed. See the text for details.

If a profile does not already have {{Uncertain Existence}}, add it while you check that the profile meets the criteria for {{Disproven Existence}}. The following steps are suggested (you may not need all steps, but please do ensure adequate communication and sufficient posted evidence before adding {{Disproven Existence}}):

  1. Post a comment on this page with the WikiTree ID of the profile you are going to be working on.
  2. Post a comment on the profile or send private messages to the profile managers notifying them of your plans and inviting the addition of primary sources showing proof of existence (as the person claimed).
  3. Post notice in G2G (tag the surname, disproven_existence, and appropriate project or projects). If the profile is part of a known fraud or fabrication (see above note), tag it fraud also.
  4. Edit the profile, adding explanation and substantial evidence that the person did not exist (include a link to the G2G post). See this G2G thread for discussion of what constitutes sufficient evidence.
  5. Consensus can be assumed if no comments on the profile or in G2G voice objection. Follow up with anyone who contacted you privately before taking the next steps.
  6. Disconnect the profile from the legitimate line.
  7. Change {{Uncertain Existence}} to {{Disproven Existence}} and update your notice (comment) on this page that the profile has been changed to Disproven Existence.

Adding Template/Categories

{{Disproven Existence}} also adds [[Category:Disproven Existence]]

Add additional categories as appropriate (see other subcategories of Fictitious and Legendary Genealogy, especially the subcategories listed under Frauds_and_Fabrications).

Placement

The {{Disproven Existence}} should be the first template on the page. This is an exception to normal placement for Research Note Boxes. Both the {{Uncertain Existence}} and {{Disproven Existence}} templates are Research Note Boxes, which are placed above the first heading on the profile ("Biography") and below any categories or project boxes. If multiple Research Note Boxes are on the profile, {{Uncertain Existence}} or {{Disproven Existence}} should be the first.
Placement for {{Disproven Existence}} is different because if the person did not exist, he or she technically would not be eligible to be included in a project (other than this one). However, projects with an interest in the profile can choose to include their project box, their project account as a profile manager, and/or applicable project categories. If they do, they should follow Disproven Existence instead of precede it.

Future/Origin

Future: See the Project Account for more info, including a link to the Google Group and details on how to add the project as a profile manager.
Origin: See this comment in the G2G discussion about creating this category, template, and project for those profiles that have been retained in WikiTree even though it is known that the person portrayed by the profile did not exist.

Members/Project Representatives

Membership is open to any WikiTree member who has signed the honor code. The intent is for the leadership team to be representatives from WikiTree projects. To join, please send a trusted list request for this page or send me a private message.

Tasks

Resources

Join
Want to join the project? Take a look at the project account & if it looks like something you'd enjoy, post a comment there. And thanks!





Collaboration


Comments: 30

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Disproven existence notice for Kellogg-1125.

Probable origin is Elizabeth M Leach Rixford, Three hundred colonial ancestors (1934) p. 182:

The Manor of Debden Hall in the Town of Debden hath an elegant and commodious Mansion. The Manor was siezed by King Henry II in 1155 and was granted to his son, King John who granted it to Lord Cromwall [sic], Earl of Essex. It came back to the Crown as part of the dowry of Mary, Bohan [sic], wife of Henry IV and remained through the reignes [sic] of Henry V, Henry VI, Edward IV and Henry VIII, who granted it to Lord Audley, Nichols [sic] Kellogg, senior, born Debon, [sic] 18 Oct. 1558.

As Richard Smith remarked in SGM discussion in 2016:

It doesn't take much wit to see this is nonsense from beginning to end. The only Cromwell to have been Earl of Essex was Thomas Cromwell, centuries after King John's reign, and we can be pretty sure Henry VIII (who died in 1547) didn't grant anything to a man born in 1558. In any case, as you say, the Barony of Audley was in the Tuchet family. https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/u7H7Mq9ourw

posted by [Living Mead]
edited by [Living Mead]
Hi, Vance -- I moved your entry to G2G so everyone will have a chance to react to it!
posted by Jack Day
Disproven existence was proposed back in June 2023 for https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Oppaymolleh-1

The g2g is here:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/1588154/disproven-existence-oppaymolieh-oppaymohlieh-oppaymolleh

Native Americans project would like to co-manage (I've asked the current profile manager-- one of the NA project's project coordinators) to add the NA account.

THanks.

posted by Jillaine Smith
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Witt-4074 is ready to have the disproven_existence research box added and the project added as PM. On 9 July 2023 I posted notice in G2G forum and responded to comments by adding the independent research which has been done on this person. Guillaume Witt's existence was researched in 2005 by the Huguenot Society and they concluded there is no evidence he existed. I networked with the PM that created the profile (1 year ago), and she orphaned the profile so I could adopt it. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to help.
posted by Holly Witt
How is it possible to prove that a given individual never existed. You'd have to know unequivocally every person who actually did exist and show that the non-existent individual wasn't among them. You can do this for small groups but not with entire populations. How about using something like 'undocumented' or 'unidentified?'
posted by Christopher Wright
You are of course quite right. In virtually every circumstance, it is impossible to prove a negative. What we mean by "Disproven Existence" in WikiTree is "We've tried and tried to find any evidence that this person ever existed and have found none but if anyone ever does we will take the label off and reconnect the person to the parents, spouses and children that a non-existent person by definition cannot have." But that's a really long title so we're sticking with "Disproven Existence" until someone comes up with a better two word title that means what my long sentence means!
posted by Jack Day
Right, but "1. substantial evidence that the person did not exist" is a confusing way to put it if you really mean "no reliable evidence of their existence has been found after a reasonably exhaustive search."
posted by Chase Ashley
So it should be “Unproven Existence” not “Disproven Existence”. There might be a need for Disproven, but use of that would be very rare. Use of disproven is misleading since that’s not what Wikitree has done. It also puts the burden on Wikitree to back up the claim of disproven. Unproven is more accurate and puts the burden of proof on whoever wants to claim otherwise.
posted by Daniel Taylor
it's a fine line, but yes, Disproven Existence should be rare & burden of proof is on WikiTree (or the PM/WikiTree member asking this project to manage the profile). If nothing can be found to support the person's existence, use Uncertain Existence.

Compare profiles in Category: Uncertain Existence (5,444) and Category: Disproven Existence (593) - for example, Meirchion ab Owain (Uncertain) & Adria (Osborne) Harris (abt.1600-abt.1625) (Disproven).

posted by Liz (Noland) Shifflett
Yes, Disproven does put the burden on the person making the claim. Disproven is most obvious in cases of fraud, where there is evidence that a non-existent person was passed off as a real one. It's a higher bar, which is why we want a week's notice on G2G before the designation goes up, and anyone who can show that the individual actually existed is a hero. It does mean, "we think we have all the facts necessary to believe that the person never existed." We could be wrong and then it's easy to fix; the profile has not been deleted. (We don't delete profiles in WikiTree.)
posted by Jack Day
John Spradlin (abt.1712-abt.1769) has been shown to have been "created" through an abstract transcription error. Will switch to Disproven Existence template and add this project to the trusted list on 24 Feb 2023 unless primary sources are found proving his existence.
posted by Ken Spratlin
Please review Lapham-1255, I am not the profile manager but she agrees this person probably never existed. The notes & sources are all there as we turned them up, so they are a bit chaotic. The main one is the final comment. There's also a summary in G2G I posted this morning.

Thank you, Jennifer, manager of the Lapham Study

UPDATE Since I wrote this a merge has been proposed, rejected and reproposed - see Bathsheba’s file’ comment section. I really don’t think they should be merged.

posted by Jennifer Lapham
edited by Jennifer Lapham
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Harding-451 While this person has been disproven, due to the number of trees on Ancestry.com that display this person, I am not sure what the next step should be.
posted by Robin Lee
Thanks, Robin.

The next step would be to post a notice on G2G. The one posted for Rose Capone would be a good example, it is a bit similar: https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/738178/ If there are no objections after 1 week - 10 days the profile is adopted by the Disproven Existence project and can be protected to avoid reconnection.

you may want to revisit the text you have above that reads:

"If the profile is included in (and categorized under) a known fraud or fabrication, that is sufficient proof to meet #1. "

Not all profiles that are categorized as part of a known fraud or fabrication would qualify for "disproven existence."

For example, there are several Native Americans who were real individuals, but they were the subject of or mentioned in a known fraudulent / fictional work as either having certain status, having certain relations, etc. We have some PGMers that fall into this same bucket. Here's an example: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bearse-3

posted by Jillaine Smith
Thanks, Jillaine. We must change that text, because under frauds we have recommended that if a perfectly legitimate profile has been tainted by a fraud, it should be categorized under the fraud as an alert, even though the actual information on the profile has been thoroughly vetted.
posted by Jack Day
Have added "Uncertain Existence Category" to profile of Elizabeth Mildred (Daux) Witt. Evidence supporting her non-existence is on her profile. Will be posting G2G Notice of Disproven Existence as well as comment on her profile.
Will be adding some profiles from Norse Mythology since they are more fictional than historical.
posted by Maggie Andersson
C-213 K C
Adding McMurdo-150; also, pending inquiries placed on Rogers-144, McMurdock-1 profiles...
posted by K C
I've added disproven eistence to Alden-2023 after taking all those other steps
posted by Anne B
Hi, on profile Margaret Halbert, there hasn't been any comments. So I closed the G2G question, and have put Disproven Existence on profile. I don't know how to make you the manager, so I'll leave that to you. Thank you.
posted by Pam Kreutzer
Hi, I'm submitting Margaret Halbert for Disproven Existence. Profile manager Robin Wood has agreed to this step. On G2G, there wasn't any disagreement about removing her from spouse: John Tyndale or son: Richard Tyndale. So, she was disconnected from them. She has no Biography, and the only sources listed are in support of her non-existence in the Tyndale family. I'll now post on the G2G to see if anyone has any proof of her existence outside of family trees. Thank you
posted by Pam Kreutzer
Hi! I just posted this on G2G, about a profile I think should be part of the Project.

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/832618/disproven-existence-project

posted by Bonnie Saunders
While working on the monthly sourcerers challenge I saw that Gangster Al Capone's siblings were not sourced. I sourced a few and was unable to find a source for sister Rose. A further search revealed that she is a fabricated person (probably by accident) but the oft repeated error has become commonplace. I think she is a good candidate for this project.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Capone-9

posted by SJ Baty
I am working on this profile: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Clayton-2226

15 Dec - profile has been marked Disproven Existence, the bio and research notes updated.

posted by SJ Baty
I've added a few profiles to the project - they are from a Gustave Anjou book. They're still connected to profiles with managers and without the Disproven box, unfortunately.