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Elizabeth Agnes (Cain) Kirk (aft. 1760 - 1862)

Elizabeth Agnes Kirk formerly Cain
Born after in Montgomery, Virginiamap
Daughter of [father unknown] and [mother unknown]
[sibling(s) unknown]
Wife of — married 1777 [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Mother of , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and
Died before age 102 in Scottsville, Macoupin, Illinoismap
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Profile last modified | Created 6 Aug 2012
This page has been accessed 1,316 times.
The Birth Date is a rough estimate. See the text for details.

Contents

Biography

A reasonable estimate for a birth year for Elizabeth Agnes Cain is about 1761[1][2] and the generally accepted birth place is Montgomery county, Virginia. Her parentage is not proven, but listed by others as James Cain (1739-1836) and Elizabeth Custer (1751-1818), who were married about 1768. A simple application of some 'rules of thumb' may be applied. If her mother was born in 1751, her mother could not have had a daughter born in 1761. If James and Elizabeth were married in 1768, then Elizabeth Agnes would have been born seven years before that marriage. Therefore, if the birth estimate and the marriage year seem reasonable, then James and Elizabeth (Custer) Cain are not her biological parents. Those who use DAR certification for her husband, William Armstead, as proof for her parents do not understand that DAR only certifies his descendants, not his parents, not his spouse and certainly not her parents.

She married William Armstead Kirk, the son of Thomas Kirk and Margaret Duncan. The marriage date of 1777 provided by Michelle McQueen. No source is given, but that year is generally accepted and also supported by the birth years of their children, the earliest of whom was born in 1778. The marriage place is also generally accepted as Montgomery county, Virginia, where most of their children were also born.

There is some variance in the number of children and their names. Up to seventeen are listed, some born in Virginia and some born in Tennessee. The following is a composite of various lists and has not been proven;

Winifred Kirk b: 3 Mar 1778 in Montgomery, VA
Nancy Kirk b: Abt 1779 in , Montgomery, VA
Ezekial Kirk b: 1782 in Montgomery County, VA
Elsie Kirk b: 1785 in Montgomery County, VA
William Armstead Kirk b: Abt 1786 in , Montgomery Co., VA
Thomas Kirk b: 1788 in Montgomery County, VA
Malinda Kirk b: Abt 1789 in , Montgomery, VA
Collins (Coley) Kirk b: Abt 1791 in , Montgomery Co., VA
Agnes Kirk b: 3 Nov 1792 in Montgomery, VA
Sarah Jane Kirk b: Abt 1794 in , Montgomery Co., VA
Mary Elizabeth Kirk b: 1796 in Claiborne County, TN
Margaret Kirk b: Abt 1798 in , Montgomery Co., VA
Alexander Kirk b: Abt 1802 in Claiborne County, TN
Barbara Kirk b: 1802 in , Montgomery, VA
Jonathan Kirk b 1803 Claiborne Co., TN.
Josiah Kirk b ca 1808 Claiborne Co., TN.
Catherine Elizabeth Kirk b:??

Their son William had a son named Elia/Elijah Ezekial who married Juliene/Juliana Cain in 1838, who was a great-niece of the James Cain mentioned above. This shows that there were connections between the Cains and the Kirks, but the link between Elizabeth Agnes Cain Kirk and the descendants of Nicholas Cain, specifically who her parents were, is not yet known. Biographical information gathered and comments provided by Steve Lake 21Apr2017

Possible, But Unproven, Relationships

Elizabeth Agnes Cain Kirk of Montgomery county, Virginia and Macoupin, Illinois is a person who is frequently connected to James Cain & Elizabeth Custer Cain, but is not mentioned in the Cain book. She does have similar family characteristics which means that she is probably connected to the Nicholas Cain of PA & VA line , but that connection is unknown. Since her dates do not match up with the dates of James & Elizabeth Custer Cain and is obviously not their biological daughter, then the logical place to reference a possible connection is with Nicholas Cain, the patriarch of this line.[3]
I have been waiting to get some feedback on this proposed change, and have received none in a year-and-a-half. The disconnect changes were completed on 10Nov2018 by Steve Lake.
On 31 Dec 2020, Elizabeth Agnes was again connected to Elizabeth Custer Cain and discovered on 23 May 2021 and disconnected again by Steve Lake.

Death and Burial

About 1862 at Scottville, Macoupin county, Illinois. Burial at West Scottville Cemetery in Macoupin county, Illinois.[4]

Sources

  1. ↑ RootsWeb.com, [1], Individual Profiles
  2. ↑ Genealogy.com, [2], Individual Profile.
  3. ↑ "The Descendant's of Nicholas Cain" 1736-1986 by Wayne R. Cain & Shirley J. Evans, [3], pdf of Chapter 3.
  4. ↑ FamilySearch.org, [4], Burial Index.


A note about the "sources" listed below. A burial source only proves the information found in the cemetery records and the gravestone, not the relationships or biographical information on the memorial. This memorial has no photo of a gravestone and provides no sources which support any info. A tree "source," such as RootsWeb, Genealogy.com, Ancestry Geni.com, etc. are only receptacles of information which may or may not include actual sources. The tree "sources" listed here have no actual sources which supports any info. On the other hand, the secondary source, "The Descendants of Nicholas Cain" is a published family history which does contain primary sources and it is listed in spite of the fact that it mentions no person named Elizabeth Agnes Cain Kirk. (Note by Steve Lake 10Nov2018)

  • Elizabeth Agnes Cain Kirk, FamilySearch.org Burial Index

"Find A Grave Index," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/QV2L-FL4H : 11 July 2016), Elizabeth Agnes Cain Kirk, ; Burial, Scottville, Macoupin, Illinois, United States of America, Scottville West Cemetery; citing record ID 77270692, Find a Grave, http://www.findagrave.com.

  • Elizabeth Agnes Cain Kirk, "Find A Grave Index"

(http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=77270692)


  • RootsWeb's WorldConnect Project: The Ties That Bind, Agnes Elizabeth Cain

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=makidee&id=I38591 Agnes Elizabeth Cain b.~1761 Montgomery, VA, m.~1776 William Kirk d.1862 Maucopin, IL, 14 children listed.
This profile has no sources provided, but presents similar information. Note that there is a birth estimate and there are no parents shown. Reference and comment provided by Steve Lake 21Apr2017

  • Genealogy.com Kathy-D-Thompson Used Trees

http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/t/h/o/Kathy-D-Thompson/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0246.html "Elizabeth Cain31 was born 1760 in Montgomery, Virginia, USA31, and died 1862 in Scottsville, Macoupin, Illinois, USA31.She married William Kirk on 1777 in Virginia, USA31, son of Thomas Kirk and Margot Duncan." 31. Ancestry.com, One World Tree (sm), Provo, UT, USA: MyFamily.com, Inc., n.d., Online publication - Ancestry.com. OneWorldTree [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: MyFamily.com, Inc.
This profile has one source provided, but Ancestry really isn't a source, it is hearsay. Profile presents similar information. Note that there is a birth estimate and there are no parents shown. Reference and comment provided by Steve Lake 21Apr2017

  • "The Descendants of Nicholas Cain: 1736-1986" by Wayne R. Cain and Shirley J. Evans Copyright: authors 1986 Published by Haysville Pioneer, Haysville, Kansas Printed by Jostens Printing & Publishing Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 86-82914. (No digital version found. Held by several libraries listed at WorldCAT. Used copies are currently for sale on Amazon and eBay. Note that this source does not have any mention of Elizabeth Agnes Cain Kirk. It does, however, mention a few Cain families with similar identifying characteristics, but who don't have known connections to Nicholas, which may be possible to connect to Elizabeth Agnes. Reference and comment provided by Steve Lake 27Apr2017


Acknowledgements

  • WikiTree profile Cain-1200 created through the import of johnsonwiki2.ged on Aug 5, 2012 by Karen Grady. See the Changes page for the details of edits by Karen and others.




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Comments: 6

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Lake-1774 Steve Lake
In the year and a half since presenting my evidence, no support for Elizabeth Agnes Cain Kirk's parents being James and Elizabeth Custer Cain has been found by me nor presented to me by anyone. I believe that enough time has passed waiting for any supporting evidence to be presented, that it is reasonable to conclude that there is no proof that she is their daughter.

Elizabeth Agnes Cain Kirk has been removed as she is not a daughter of James Cain and Elizabeth Custer. The evidence and reasoning for this disconnection have been presented in this biography. The existence of the relationship lent too much credibility to an unproven relationship. Those wanting to believe that this relationship was correct could easily overlook the evidence and reasoning in favor of it being incorrect.

posted by Steve Lake
Lake-1774 Steve Lake
I went ahead and spent some time today on this question of who Elizabeth Agnes' parents were and wrote a few paragraphs of biography, unfortunately based on several collections of family history, for which I would just be repeating the same secondary sources if I put in source references for all the vitals mentioned.

Certainly the reasoning and conclusions I also added are debatable and amendable, but I consider them a conversation starter, not the final word. Anyone can assert their family history and dispute every other version, but I think it is better and much less prejudiced to present as many differing sets of facts as possible and use reasoning to narrow the possible down to the more probable. This way everyone who is willing to read & listen can have a better appreciation of all.

posted by Steve Lake
Lake-1774 Steve Lake
I re-arranged the source list a bit and added "Acknowledgements." To this I added two source references to other web sites, for what they are worth. Both may be deleted if they are not deemed to be of value otherwise, but they serve my purpose of showing an absence of parents plus an estimated birth date which is before James & Elizabeth (Custer) Cain were married.

I think this is going to boil down to whether the book is accepted as a credible source versus all the un-sourced information that is floating around. These people lived during the "genealogy dark ages" so sources are unlikely to be found, as I'm sure many have tried to find and most don't care.

posted by Steve Lake
Lake-1774 Steve Lake
The lack of proof for Elizabeth Agnes Cain's parentage is a problem. There are plenty of web sites that connect these parents, but I can find no source to support the parents listed here, plus the dates make it very unlikely. Geography isn't as big of an issue if the dates lined up.

The book I'm using as a baseline source has a daughter for James & Elizabeth Custer Cain named Elizabeth, but she was born 1776. This book has some Kirk's listed, with similar given names, but they marry into the Cain line about two generations later.

So, my question is whether the lack of evidence is enough to disconnect these parents?

posted by Steve Lake
Lee-5956 Robin Lee
It would appear that the Find a Grave data may be flawed, as it would have Elizabeth's birth when her mother is only 9 years old.
posted by Robin Lee
[Living McQueen]
Married 1777
posted by [Living McQueen]

Rejected matches › Elizabeth (Boisseau) Cain › Mary Elizabeth (Cain) Charles (abt.1832-) › Sarah Elizabeth (Jeffords) Cain (1885-1970) › › Elizabeth (Williams) Cain › Elizabeth O (Cain) Helton › Elizabeth (Hutchins) Cain (1772-1856) › Elizabeth (Johnson) Cain (abt.1798-) › Elizabeth (Tanner) Cain › Elizabeth (Cain) Humble (abt.1776-abt.1833)

This week's featured connections are Redheads: Elizabeth is 14 degrees from Catherine of Aragón, 16 degrees from Clara Bow, 26 degrees from Julia Gillard, 11 degrees from Nancy Hart, 10 degrees from Rutherford Hayes, 11 degrees from Rita Hayworth, 15 degrees from Leonard Kelly, 17 degrees from Rose Leslie, 18 degrees from Damian Lewis, 14 degrees from Maureen O'Hara, 23 degrees from Jopie Schaft and 32 degrees from Eirik Thorvaldsson on our single family tree. Login to see how you relate to 33 million family members.

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Categories: Estimated Birth Date