Are Gilbert Holcombe and Anne Courtenay parents of Thomas Holcombe of Windsor?

+9 votes
834 views
Can anyone provide evidence that Gilbert Holcombe and Anne Courtenay are the father and mother of Thomas Holcombe of early Dorchester and Windsor?

His profile is undergoing a much needed editing of duplicate and/or superfluous text, but you can read the authors who say his parents and origins are unknown, beginning with Anderson.

Asking for input and comments especially from relevant PMs.
WikiTree profile: Thomas Holcombe
in Genealogy Help by April Dauenhauer G2G6 Pilot (126k points)
Thanks for your work on this profile April. Do you want any editing help on it?
Your help is always welcome by me Jillaine, thank you.

I set a line in the profile to mark where I stopped in my first pass through.

I turned the copy/paste of the GMB profile into a timeline -- rough edit, needs second pass.  I'll be away until this afternoon.

Hoping for consensus to disconnect/remove parents-not from Thomas' profile and ditto for his wife.

Do you know if there is any reliable source with evidence for parents for Thomas Holcombe? I haven't seen anything convincing yet, and McCracken has blown up all the current guesses -- I think.
April, I've taken a look at the TAG articles by McCracken. What a travesty with the tombstone. Anyway, it sounds to me like a disconnect is in order.

Anne, thank you for taking the time, and thank you for clear direction. I hope to wrap this up in another week, and hope to see more comments by then.

Because there is a strong belief that his parents are known, taking time for discussion is important.  How I wish his 'father' Gilbert Holcombe did not die d.s.p. -- for years I have been so happy to be connected to the "Courtenay of Cornwall" genealogy, through his mother. That rather slams the door - for the man to "die without issue".

Oh well, if wishes were facts, we'd all have ancestors who came over on the Mayflower:)

Sifting through the bio for Thomas Holcombe, I've been connecting facts to their sources.

An example would be the idea that he represented Windsor in 1639 at the writing of the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut.

If only we could prove it was true, what an honor. My research shows:

1. claims that there is no extant record of the proceedings or even a list of all the participants

2. the fact is reported "Fundamental Orders of Connecticut", by Jesse Seaver, (an early biography that is not reliable in all things), but also reported by Henry R. Stiles in "History of Ancient Windsor", giving it consideration for further research.

I'm learning more about events that interest me like the Fundamental Orders, so it is worth the effort, but the going is slow.

You're doing a great job, April.  Sorry I haven't had more time to help you with this.
Your encouragement means a great deal to me Jillaine. Thank you!

No worries about helping more - this has turned out to be a good thing. I woke up this morning with Thomas Holcombe on my mind, seeing a good way to revise the Time Line and complete his make-over.  The Puritan Great Migration Project which you served as Leader for many years has taught me so much.

One thing I learned is not to get overly attached to having a particular lineage, but put the emphasis on the evidence. My own tree had the wrong parentage for both Thomas and his wife until now. (Is there a word meaning "both sad and happy at the same time"?)
"Bittersweet"
That is it exactly. Thank you Anne -

It was a bittersweet moment when I discovered the evidence for Gilbert Holcombe proved that he was not the father of Thomas.
Which evidence are you referring to?

I haven't changed my Holcombe tree based upon McCraken's interpretation of a visitation note, which in of itself I don't believe qualifies as evidence.

Do you have something else that qualifies as evidence?
Graeme, if you read the profile of Thomas, you'll see multiple mentions of the fact that Gilbert died without issue, per his probate records, so could not have been father of the emigrant.
Thank you for your suggestion Jillain.

Since the written word "read" can be interpreted in either a past or future tense, I decided to cover both bases by re-reading the material you suggested. If you meant the past tense alternative of the word 'read', then I can only presume you made an assumption of ignorance on my part. I prefer hypothesis, and this subject has yet to be proven one way or another in my opinion.

Too many assumptions exist in the discourse to date that I've read many times and researched as well.  I don't have any preconceptions as to what the 'truth' is on this matter.

However, the one fact everyone seems to hang their hats on, is subject to at least one completely different interpretation.

While there is no dispute that McCraken contributed much to the field of genealogy, I can assure you he was not infallible.

I'm not sure what Thomas' ancestral genealogy is, but I hope that DNA testing/matching will address the issue once and for all sometime in the near future.

Progress can be generally defined as "the discovery and correction of error".  

The only thing I've seen to date is discovery of a presumed error and a defense of that discovery in the absence of serious dialectic on the matter.  Something akin to herd theory.
Present tense intended.

Graeme, concur about infallibility. I even found an error by Robert Charles Anderson! ;-)

Does Gilbert's will not rule him out as a candidate?
Thank you for asking.  

The short answer is No.

Commentary below solely from memory as I don't have access to my records at the moment.

Question: Who said it was Gilbert's will?  

Answer:  Vivian (what today might be considered as a census taker or tax assessor or a combination of the two?) documented this in the Visitations, with perhaps a less than perfect record of getting things right.  However, what or who was the source of the information?

Question: Does a facsimile of the alleged oral will exist?

Basis:
- Oral will: an oral will per a lawyer who's son is the beneficiary.  Hmmm...at a minimum, the will's authenticity should be questioned.
- Oral will contested by a another family member.  Not surprising.
- An oral will that was not settled for another 14 or so years later. Why?  

- Question: Is there a possibility of Estate fraud?

Definitions:
Common: dsp = Latin acronym of a phrase meaning "died without issue" (that in and of itself is either a presumption or an assumption) more accurately stated as "died without KNOWN issue"

Legal: died without heirs = BIG difference.  

Lastly, is Bonithan (sp?) genealogically documented as a Brother-in-Law from a reliable source?  If so, I have yet to see it.  I could not find him after a cursory search.

Conclusion:  My opinion is that this puzzle will only be solved via Y-DNA matching. And that requires sufficient Y-DNA testing by a sufficient number of Holcombe's (by any of the various spellings) triangulating with MCRAs at Gilbert's and his brothers level and his father Thomas' level.

2 Answers

+4 votes
Hello,  

I too am descended from the immigrant Thomas Holcombe (my 8th great grandfather). I have long pondered the question of his parentage and the issue of Gilbert's having been listed as dying dsp in the Visitation of Devon. Although in the absence of proof, we must assume Gilbert isn't Thomas's father, there are some lingering, and very odd questions which remain concerning the oddities found within the notation in the JL Vivian's Visitation of Devon regarding Gilbert Holcombe and Anne Courtenay. Gilbert doesn't appear to have had any sisters, so who was his "brother in law"  Richard Bonithon? Gilbert's will was probated in about 1623/4 and yet wasn't dispersed and completed in terms of goods distributed until decades later (a very long time, was the will disputed, and if so, by whom?) when Richard Bonithon's nephew  was given rights because Richard had died by then.  Perhaps  Richard Bonithon was a brother in law of Anne De Courtenay's (husband to one of her sisters?), but this is an  unlikely heir given that Gilbert must have had nephews and nieces from his two brothers Josiah and Christopher upon which he could have easily bestowed his entire estate if he had no natural heirs and wife.  Richard Bonithon can't have been Gilbert's  brother in law because the pedigree lists no sisters of Gilbert's, unless they were left off for some reason. Also, when did Anne Holcombe (Courtenay) die? I haven't found a solid date, only "abt" 1642 or so.  If this is correct, that means she died after her husband, but wasn't the legatee of his will.  That's odd in and of itself. Perhaps she was already gone when Gilbert died in 1623 but if she wasn't dead yet, why didn't she inherit his estate?  Thomas Holcombe was born in or around 1605-1609 so by 1623 he would have been 14-18 and old enough to leave home if he chose.  He could have easily left for Leiden Holland with separatists and never been heard from again, after that, sailing to America. Perhaps Gilbert and Anne had several children, some who died and some who left the country or were disinherited for reasons unknown to us. Was Anne herself disinherited? Gilbert Holcombe was a gentleman and so could have afforded to legally seek a divorce from Parliament if he wanted rid of his wife for something like adultery, etc.....If there was adultery, he could have certainly disinherited her, and any children they had together. Perhaps Anne abandoned Gilbert, or perhaps a family rift of some kind caused Gilbert to disown everyone and give his money and estate to a distant relative out of spite. The questions are lingering and endless, because there is no clear answer as to whether he never actually had children, or just died without "legal" heirs, thus the "dsp"  notation. Again, it's odd that a man with two brothers would bestow his estate upon someone other than one of those two brothers, or, their children if they had both passed before Gilbert.

I don't think it's wishful thinking to examine some of these strange "stand out" issues, none of which are elaborated upon by JL. Vivian in his pedigree Visitation of Devon (or Cornwall). Therein lies the problem with straight pedigree charts such as those found in that book. They never give any details nor legal explanations as to why something occurred, leaving the researcher to wonder as to what story lies behind the pedigree. Although dsp typically denotes dying without issue, it could also have been a notation which merely outlined that no issue or heirs of offspring were mentioned in his will, which btw was oral, not written.  

Food for thought.  I hope someday someone finds Thomas's parents, because no matter who they were, they mattered.
by
Hello,

I have some questions about this Holcombe family.  

Is it possible that the Gilbert Holcombe in the Cornwall will is not the Gilbert Holcombe that married Anne Courtenay?  Didn't Gilbert and Anne move their family to Wales?  Did they later move to Cornwall and I missed that tidbit?  

If Gilbert and Anne did not have children, then shouldn't both of their Wikitree profiles be cleaned up and be unlinked from all the children on their profiles?

At one time, my Ancestry tree was falsely linked to Gilbert and Anne via Thomas and his theorized sister Elizabeth who I also descend from.  Now they will be brick walls until proof of their heritage is found.
Hello.  First I want to apologize up front for the rambling discourse below. Thomas is not on my direct Holcombe line and I'm certainly not an expert in his lineage. A pinch or pound of salt may be in order.

My interest is in proving my Holcombe direct line. So, I'm butting in. Please forgive me.

I've been reviewing this topic regarding Thomas (1605-1657) the immigrant and his parentage.  I have solid Y-DNA matches on my Holcombe direct line that includes this family.

I thought I had found the common ancestor with one DNA match as Thomas Holcombe (Oxford faculty), my 11th great-grandfather. He is the father of Christopher Holcombe (my 10th great-grandfather) and Gilbert Holcombe amongst others. That is, until I came across the issue of Thomas the immigrant's parentage and looked into things further.

The first question that comes to mind is: What is the earliest source attributing Gilbert Holcombe as Thomas (the Immigrant) Holcombe's father to begin with? I am aware of Seaver's attribution, but are there earlier sources? Or conversely, sources independent of Seaver?  McPherson mentions Gilbert Holcombe being the reported father of Thomas Holcombe (A-0) in her 'The Holcombes...' book.  She did not identify the "reported" source as far as I know.  But surely she was aware of Seaver's book on Holcombe Genealogy written 40+ years earlier.  However, what if Seaver, and McPherson following along 40+ years later, got it wrong?

There are many trees out there with Gilbert Holcombe and Anne Courtenay having varying numbers of Children without Thomas on the list. Seaver only reported two sons-Thomas & Alfred-perhaps two too many. I also found a family tree showing Thomas Holcombe (1605-1607) as the son of Christopher Holcombe and Joyce Mears. This is congruent with naming a son after his father Thomas Holcombe of Oxford (1526-1579) whom I believe is the 1st Thomas introduced into my Holcombe line.

So, perhaps it is a false premise that Gilbert was the father of Thomas the immigrant to begin with.  And, my tree also shows this Gilbert dying in Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales in line with one of the earlier contributors of this thread, not Devon. Their thread also included two Gilberts, the Gilbert with the will & the Gilbert with the correct brothers in the Visitation record.  This may be a strong possibility. I've looked at all reported sources of potential brother-in-laws via all the purported sisters of Gilbert, and even Ann Courtenay's sisters, and I've yet to find any one named Bonithon related to the family.  

The closest l got to a Richard Bonithon or John Bonython, the ultimate adminstrator of Gilbert's will circa 17 Feb 1655-56, was Elizabeth Holcombe (1463-1515). Elizabeth was a child of Roger Holcombe and Margaret Avenell.   Elizabeth married John Babington (1462- ).  

By the time John Bonython finally closed things out circa 1655-56, Gilbert's brothers Christopher and Josias Holcombe were already dead.  So, possibly two Gilberts, disinheritance, or out right fraud perhaps? It appears that John Bonython came to the American Colonies at some point in time.

If you made it this far, thanks for your patience and endurance. Perhaps I should note that my family tree is NOT infallible.

But it gets better with any constructive feedback I receive. And, thanks to my mother who started it all 50 years ago, with a couple of trips to England and Europe to gather information first hand.  With a bit of McPherson thrown in.

UPDATE:  After a follow-up review, it appears the sons- Gibert, Christopher and Josia - of Thomas Holcombe of Oxford Univ. all allegedly had sons named Thomas, with the possible exception of Gilbert.  This was some what of a pattern in this line.  The inspiration for introducing the name 'Thomas' into my Holcombe line appears to be Elizabeth Sydenham, wife of Ellis Holcombe and mother of Thomas Holcombe, the first Thomas in the Holcombe line as far as I know.  Elizabeth's father's name was Thomas Sydenham.
I'm not so sure that Elizabeth and Thomas were falsely linked.

At some point, Y-DNA will resolve this question once and for all.  

To think there was only one Gilbert in the Holcombe family tree is questionable.

Corwall vs. Devon/ Devonshire?   

Hmmm....me thinks you're on to something.
+2 votes
I posted, but evidently to another comment but not an answer.  Those may be seen below with others who may question the trending perceptions.

I challenge the McCracken interpretation of the visitation notes.  The disrupting visitation note is a little problematic from my perspective.  Apparently, others that commented below do as well.  So, exactly what is the evidence that Thomas was not Gilbert's son? I don't believe the visitation note suffices as evidence, especially when the son of the person writing the note was the eventual beneficiary.

Firstly, McCraken's d.s.p. Latin translation is fine as far as it goes but doesn't necessarily apply in a legal sense.

Secondly, Gilbert Holcombe would likely have had a written will, given his and his wife's family means and social status.

Thirdly, I have a Y-DNA 111 match, but I'm holding off any interpretation until my Big Y results come in.  The match's ancestor is Thomas Holcombe.  My side of the match would be from Christopher Holcombe who is/was Thomas' brother.  As I note below, it 'appears' all three sons; Gilbert, Christopher, and Isaiah, of the father Thomas each had sons named Thomas, unless someone proves otherwise.
 

Has anyone 'proved' or disproved either genealogical possibility with Y-DNA?  If so, would someone please point it out to me?

Lastly, who was this Bonithan allegedly related to the Holcombe or Holcombe extended family?  I can't find him in my tree.  So, has anyone found him anywhere?

Are there more questions than answers at this point?
by Graeme Holcombe G2G6 (7.1k points)
edited by Graeme Holcombe

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