Naming standards

+23 votes
842 views

Can anyone correcting errors or creating profiles using Wikipedia as a source remember that Wikitree naming standards are to use the names the person would have used in the language they would have used and this applies to both personal names and place names.

"We aim to use the names that people themselves would have known and that would have been recognized in their own time and place.

This is true for the "official name fields", Proper First Name and Last Name at Birth, and it's also true for the "preferred name fields", Preferred First Name and Current Last Name. These are meant to be the names they would prefer, not the names we prefer to call them."

"WikiTree's preferred style for location names is to use the name that was used by the people in that place, at the time of the event you're recording. We aim to use the place names that people themselves would have known, in their own language. See Location Fields for details."

If you are unsure what the names should be, and they have a Wikipedia article, then the easiest way to click on the Wikipedia article in the language they would have spoken and copy and paste the name and place details from there.

Thank you

edit: added tag place_names

in Policy and Style by John Atkinson G2G6 Pilot (630k points)
recategorized by Jillaine Smith
Magnus that is exactly what I said  That one field only leads to confusion,  I agree we need more than one field.  In my humble opinion we need to know where to find a location so using only language from the time period is extremely misleading for a whole variety of reasons.

There is a whole lot of empty space under the biography heading where all sorts of location name changes can be explained. To use the main location field for anything but the original location name creates a mess for future changes in names, political affiliation etc. Examples galore!

  • FamilySearch German place names are mostly based on late 19th century publications that put everything into Prussia that was at that time in Prussia. On FamilySearch and Ancestry Charlemagne died in Aachen, Prussia.
  • French Canadian places of origin in France in publications such as Tanguay use the regions as they were in place at the time of the compilation.
  • The massive territorial changes after WW II in Europe would have required a tremendous effort to go back to every record and change the locations to the new political realities if the database would already have been in place with the previously correct locations.
  • German reunification in 1990 and the Czech and Slovak split in 1993 are some relatively recent events which would have required a great effort to update numerous records. 

And with respect to language: English may be very widely used but it is not the language for the majority of the world population. 

Helmut,  I understand what you are saying.  It is just old location names often no longer exist and trying to figure out where they are can be a full time job.  I used Germany as an example because it has so many of the same location names in a small concentrated area.  Take something like Maienfeld bei Magdeburg which is on one my great great I forget the number grandfather's birth record.  We have tried to identify where this is and we know it is not the one in Switzerland and believe it probably has now been swallowed up by Magdeburg as the record is from the early 1700s.  So I like using both modern place names in one field along with document names.  You do not update this with every change but a review is supposed to be done every 10 years on 0 years so that descendants will be able to find these locations based on more modern names.  In that case a global text change can be made replacing say for example Soviet Union with Russia or Georgia as things change...

Magnus I am not trying to be difficult but what ever standard is used should be easily searchable and usable by the masses who use WikiTree.

I just took one of your "Q" numbers and dropped it into google search, bing, and Norton safe search and it came back as 

Your search for Q1399026 did not match with any results.

To me, what ever standard is used should be something we can plug into a common search engine and find the place.  

Laura, WikiTree is aiming to be an international site and not Anglo centric. Does that mean we use Cyrillic for Russian locations? And using modern locations do we then have Immanuel Kant born in Калинингра́д, Калининградская область, Российская Федерация, instead of Königsberg, Königreich Preußen?

As to the review every 10 years: I have about 75,000 Bohemian profiles in my personal database, frankly, I can think of dozens of better ways to use my time for genealogy than to go through every one every 10 years and replace locations where villages have been incorporated into cities, or merges have been reversed, or communities have been switched to another county and so on. I guess with that number I would still be replacing Československá republika first with Česká a Slovenská Federativní Republika in 1990, then with Česká republika in 1993.

Ok so it is behind the scenes kind of link?  I think for me, the purpose of doing genealogy is not for me only but for my family, my grandkids and all the generations after them.  So I want the work to be usable in the future without making it so hard they have trouble finding the places their ancestors came from.  I am big on user usability and have seen major database designs bite the dust because users found them too cumbersome. I worked with lots of IT folks to make systems user friendly and productive.   When users say they can't find something (I see that in a lot of the postings on the forum) it tells me usability is an issue.  So that is the position I am writing from.  How to make the locations usable not only for the "initiated" but for the users who are not techy and may not be versed in the locations they are trying to enter.  I like the GPS methods because they are searchable and using Google Earth it shows you what the place looks like now.  Then you can research the past if you know where to look to begin with... that can be a real problem...  So if you enter something like Meisenthal does the behind the scenes link translate that to a GPS and display that as part of the name so it is searchable and then no matter how someone butchers an entry you have a fighting chance of finding the place?  If so, how do you deal with the issue like Germany of so many places with the same name?
Helmut that 10 year review is done by a team of people not the users to update the current location name.  You enter it once, the system does an update every 10 years based on current geographical names.

Ok so in your last map example it was clear to me, this was the wrong Meisenthal.  Mine is in Lorraine. so I queried for Meisenthal France and got the one in Moselle, Loraine which is the correct one  at 48.96587, 7.351289 so by doing this we could double check locations with so many places having the same names in close proximity to each other.  I like it.  As the programmers used to say, Elegant!

Markus: It would only work if the FamilySearch database were a useful tool. It is not for many places: There is a town named Vráto in Southern Bohemia that does not exist in the database at all and I'm sure there would be many international locations that just don't exist. So there would be nothing to link to, even though Vráto of course does exist on Wikidata - Vráto (Q1728300).

So can we add one field to enter GPS coordinates?   Wouldn't that solve the issue by crossing time periods and naming patterns?   Is it searchable and it remains constant.

5 Answers

+9 votes
Glad to see this reminder!
by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (470k points)
+8 votes
Do we have a place we can put links to place name information? Everywhere has had change over the years and we can't expect everyone to be knowledgeable about everywhere. There may be articles that explain the changes. They could be in each location (country/state/county/town) but should have an overall category "Place Names"? Does this exist already?
by Sue Hall G2G6 Pilot (169k points)

Some of us have used place categories to provide an outline of the history of the name of a place. Free-space pages are appropriate for providing more detail. For some examples of the different ways this has been done in categories, see:

There are plenty more places that could benefit from this kind of information!

For Virginia, most all counties have a Category page with info about their history. See [[Category:Virginia]]. See also [[this table]], which shows whether there is also a Virginia Colony category for the county (that I've found... pretty sure I've found most that were created before December 2016).

Cheers, Liz

Province of Massachusetts Bay

has the date to stop using c.1776:

Province of Massachusetts Bay, 1692-c.1776

Wikipedia

 

has this information:

Before statehood:   Province of Massachusetts Bay

Admission to Union:   February 6, 1788 (6th)

 

Should that be changed from c.1776  to February 6, 1788?

 

   
   
+5 votes
Funny you should have Prague as an example. This has confused me for a long time. My great grandparents were students there, they met, married and had my grandmother there. In the Pomeroy book they are listed as marrying in Prague Oct 28, 1882. (Hiram Sterling Pomeroy and Mary Shepardson). My grandmother Faith Pomeroy was born Dec 10, 1883 in Weinburg, Bohemia, Austria. How should they be listed according to your rules?
by Sue Hall G2G6 Pilot (169k points)

1882 Prague: Praha, České království, Rakousko-Uhersko or Prag, Königreich Böhmen, Österreichisch-Ungarische Monarchie (Prague, Kingdom of Bohemia, Austria-Hungary), depending on what language the church book entry is.

Weinburg is a bit of a problem: The Topographisches Post-Lexicon des Königreiches Böhmen does not list a Weinburg but several Weinberg, three of them are relatively near Prague, their Czech name is Vinice. More likely is Königliche Weinberge, Vinohrady in Czech, which is a district of Prague. Language would again depend on the church book.

Don't know what church it was. Hiram Pomeroy was Congregationalist from Connecticut. Mary Shepardson was Baptist from Ohio. They ended up Congregationalist. Where did American students go in 1882/1883?  They were both studying at Universities. He was a medical student. She was studying music. Do the marriage/births get registered only with the church or with civil authorities too? Sorry, I don't know anything about getting this information.
I updated the data to the English proper description. I put the possible translations in the Biography text.

The archive for Prague would be Archiv hlavního města Prahy / The Prague City Archives, maybe you can find something there.

Maybe the birth wasn't even registered locally, since her parents were Americans. Just a thought...
My $0.02, what really matters to most people is what is it called TODAY, If I want to go to that region for a vacation, and look up records, or cemeteries.  I want to know where to go, My ancestor is dead, he does not care anymore,   Not looking to change anyone Idea, but like I said My $0.02.....
I totally agree Linda!! I'm doing my tree to find out where my family came from etc. but even when I click on the location thingy (watch out I'm using technical terms here lol) to see where some place is and the map location says there is no such place. Because of that, I have a hard time deciding if that is one of my relatives or not. I also do a lot of merging duplicates, etc. and I don't like doing the ones in Europe because I don't know places there and proper names, etc. If we get too particular then people will not want to do the duplicate merges at all. Also I'm thinking about my non-existent right now grandchildren or great grandchildren going on WikiTree and seeing the tree that I have created and being able to say that my G4 grandparents came from .... Let's go there and see if we can find exactly where their home place was. If they can't find where the location is because Google Maps doesn't know where that location was in 1776, it only knows where the places are now, then they will quickly lose interest in their family history. I'm doing my tree not just for my enjoyment but for future generations to be able to see where their family came from. My $0.02 as well!
+4 votes

One possible approach to this contentious issue which has not yet been explored is the use of categories.  Unlike the place names, categories are in one-language streams.  If you click on "Find" at the top right corner of the field and then "Categories", you see Categories in more than a dozen languages.  Each one is a category stream in THAT language.  Obviously, the English language stream is the most developed.  

A Czech-speaking person who was born in České Budějovice would have that as the place name in the data field, but could be categorized under České Budějovice in the Czech language category stream, under Böhmisch Budweis in the German language category stream and under Budweis in the English language category stream.  All three categories would appear at the top of the biography, providing not only categorization but instant translations.

On a trip there a couple of decades ago we visited the brewery that makes real Czech Budweiser beer, not the American imitation...

by Jack Day G2G6 Pilot (470k points)
Yeah, my great-grandfather worked there ...
Awesome!
+3 votes

I wrote the following for a Data Doctor's forum discussion on this topic. Sharing it here with small edits for a broader audience that might find it in search. TL;DR at the bottom.


The assertion that using present day country and country subdivision codes is a better approach than the more fuzzy historical names sacrifices accuracy and provenance for validity. Something can be valid, i.e., a meaning that is authoritatively consistent and uniformly understood, for accuracy, the property of being correct and exact. When representing a meaning, both are important. Using the current ISO codes and more locally accepted standards for subdivisions maximizes validity. I always want to use them. However, sacrificing accuracy for validity is similar to unjustly convicting a person in court for a just and honorable action in order to follow the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law. Ideally, we achieve both accuracy and validity, but accuracy is clouded by the veil of decades or centuries of time in genealogy.

Unfortunately, ISO codes are time sensitive. They change on a regular basis. The ISO sends out updates when area boundaries change. We may see this soon for the Crimea, for example. That's why in sophisticated geocoding schemes, one must use the accepted standard code and a period of time (with a start and end timestamp, or a point within the period) in combination. If the ISO codes reached far enough back in time, they could be adequate to our purpose in genealogy using a code and a point in time. That's what businesses do in industries like property and casualty insurance. Unfortunately, we need to reach much further back into time than any business supported by ISO codes.

Using an example of Maienfeld bie Magdeburg from this thread, we have a choice between validity and accuracy. If we go validity, it seems we must choose to define the location as Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhault, Germany (assuming English place names for this discussion; natural language selection is a valid and interesting, but different, topic). In doing so, we have lost accuracy and to anyone without a direct knowledge of the provenance of the data, it's less accurate than Maienfeld bie Magdeburg, Duchy of Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt accompanied by the applicable point in time. If we have the latter information, we know it's maximally accurate. Since we have provenance due to using the original representation, anyone can do their own validation and primary research on the meaning. If we use the modern ISO standards, the accuracy and the provenance is lost. The possibility of coming to a better understand of the original meaning is lost because the original representation is lost. 

In the example of a dated marriage certificate, the original name is quite important. A determination that Duchy of Magdeburg is the correct representation is only accurate if the ancestor was married before 1806. After Napoleon conquered Prussia in the War of the Fourth Coalition in 1806, the Duchy of Magdeburg was dissolved on 7 Jul 1807 by the Treaty of Tilsit. After that date, the accurate designation is probably Maienfeld bie Magdeburg, Kingdom of Westphalia, First French Empire. After 1814-1815, that was no longer accurate, as Napoleon and his empire fell in 1815. Prussia retook the city during the War of the Sixth Consolidation. Since Magdeburg is on the west side of the River Elbe, it didn't get absorbed into Prussia, which happened a long stone throw away over the river to the east. I didn't look at what it became on the west side of the river, but it wasn't part of Prussia.

Speaking of that long stone's throw, are we sure the location is called "Maienfeld bie Magdeburg" instead of "Maienfeld bei Magdeburg". "bei" in Deutsch can be translated "near", so it's the same as saying "Maien's Field near Magdeburg", or perhaps "May Field near Magdeburg". If we lose the original spelling, even that is a loss as it can't be reverse engineered from the modern geography standards.If Maienfeld was near but east of the river, it became part of Prussia in 1815. That distinction is important to our standardized names and codes today. Today, Magdeburg  is one of three independent cities in the state of Saxony-Anhalt. But as far as we know because we have the original name, "May Field near Magdeburg" may be near the city, but east of the river. If so, the correct modern name is Some-Unknown-Location, Jerichower Land, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany. What would we call the location in this case? We don't have information to name it accurately and validly if we use modern names. If we chose to force a modern name, we lose accuracy and many clues to finding the actual location when we use the modern names.

Knowing the original designation can even help with the fuzzy dates we often have. It can also tell us something of the language, the religion, the politics, and the culture of the person who selected that name. All that is lost if you only use the representation Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhault, Germany.

Wrapping all that up, and changing the topic a bit, I suggest a place to look for what may be Maienfeld bei Magdeburg. If it transliterates to "May Field near Magdeburg", the place could be related to the Sack of Magdeburg on 20 May 1631. On this date, Magdeburg was destroyed by the Catholic League and the Imperialists at the direction of Ferdinand II. 80% of the population died and  nearly 90% of the buildings burned. Looting continued for three days. The city was rubble until 1720 - 89 years! It was a big deal and it happened in MAY! It reminds me of the National September 11 Memorial and Museum in NYC, and makes me wonder if Maienfeld bei Magdeburg was originally a reference to a cemetery where the dead were buried, the field where the final artillery bombardment began, or the location of the final negotiation where the city refused to surrender after a two-month siege before Pappenheim sent in 40,000 troops to raze the city.

On a more peaceful note, it could be a reference to the tulip fields prominent at the 1600s and 1700s and today. The tulips start to show vibrant colors in May at this latitude. Perhaps the location is related to tulip fields.

In genealogy research, the last thing we want to do is obfuscate real meaning in the name of using a representation that's close to accurate, but assured to be inaccurate in many situation. Even when accurate, it reduces the trust the genealogist has that the location is accurate. As you can see by the attempt to research the location of Maienfeld bei Magdeburg, the actual original name carried a lot of embedded meaning to help us consider pieces of the puzzle. The modern name without the context might lead us to only look west of the Elbe when it may be to the east in the county of Jerichower Land.

TL;DR

The meaning is more important than the way we choose to represent it. If we haven't lost meaning, we can accurately represent it in numerous ways. If we lose meaning for sake of the way we represent the meaning, we've compromised the purpose of the representation. That's why I personally continue to assert that use of the name of a place as it was on the date of an event (birth, death, residency, etc.) is the better option when only one representation is available. The modern representation can often be derived with the original representation, but translation the back to the original is often not possible.

It would be really nice to have a second data point for each location - one for present day name (optional) and one for the name at the time of the relevant event, e.g., birth, date, residence.

I hope you'll consider this point of view.

by Jeff Gentry G2G6 Mach 1 (18.7k points)
As an historian, I am adamant that the place one was born should be the place was born AT THAT TIME.  People born in Maryland before 1776 were born in the Province of Maryland.  That is what is was called then.  There was no USA.  

But I recognize that there is such a strong desire to be able to spot the place on the map.  It's no challenge to find the present location of what was the Province of Maryland, but where in Europe did the King of the Burgundians actually hang out?  (Hint:  It was not present-day Burgundy).  The solution really is to add a new field called "Geographic Location"  which in the depths of the computer would translate to the GPS location.  You put in the name, "Sevastopol, Crimea, Ukraine", and the computer would translate that to the numerical code for that location.  Later, if the Russian annexation is recognized internationally, the guts of the computer would be amended so that it would now, without further effort, display the current location as Sevastopol, Crimea, Russia.  Someone who was born in Leningrad, Soviet Union would always be born in Leningrad, but the current Geographic Location would be St. Petersburg, Russia.  

I really believe that the only way to keep both the historians and geographers happy is to find a way to cater to both.
Since genealogy is a subfield of history, genealogists should also adhere to the name of the place "at that time." While not called out directly in the BCG Standards, it is definitely there in the "Data Collection Standards" section.  

I do think having a GPS coordinate with an indication of what it is a coordinate for would be useful. Coordinate for a country/county/town is different from an exact coordinate so would need to be included.

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