Y-DNA: how to find others in group?

Question

I don't have Y-DNA, but I have my brother's result, which is R-M405. (I know those can also be S21/U106, but I was given just the R-M405... it's 23 & Me which doesn't drill down very far, if I understand correctly?)

Is there a way to search for others with this group? I have hit a brick wall on our family name so I'm hoping for some direction.

Answer 1

Crystal,

The R-M405 you mention is a very broad upper level Y-DNA haplogroup. This probably includes millions of individuals. In order to get better fidelity, one would have to get the BigY-700 test at FTDNA (or equivalent). Even getting the Y-111 test at FTDNA would still have you at R-M405.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful...

Comments

Ken's right. R-M405/U106 is estimated to have formed about 4,800 to 5,000 years ago, and there are currently 5,168 branches (or subclades, e.g., more refined haplogroups) below it in the haplotree hierarchy.

The most common branch under R-L151 is P312 (15,594 subbranches), but U106 comes in second place with two additional branches representing only 249 and 29 subbranches, respectively.

The usefulness of the 23andMe haplogroup to you right now is that it can disprove a hypothesis, i.e., if another descendant of the most recent patrilineal ancestor shows a haplogroup that is not R-U106 or one of its subclades, then he and your brother are not related in the genealogical timeframe...not for millennia, in fact. But as a form of positive evidence, it can't tell you much.

One sort of sideways trick--and to be clear, nowhere near as accurate as taking a Big Y test or whole genome sequencing--is to see if you can find a known patrilineal relative(s) who has taken a Big Y test. If you're confident in the paper trail and he's no more distant than a 3rd or 4th cousin, then his haplogroup will give you a good idea of your brother's and father's.

As an example only, let's say that a 3rd cousin has taken a Big Y test and is positive for FGC12376, deep under U106. Your brother may not have that exact variant because we're talking a shared 4g-grandfather and a mutation may have occurred. But the next step higher from FGC12376 is FGC5253 (plus several synonymous variants). Another step higher from there is FGC5254, and then FGC5264. If the paper trail is accurate, it's a virtual certainty that your brother would be positive for one of those SNPs.

YSEQ, in Germany, offers high quality, low cost, a la carte Y-SNP testing. They currently have over a quarter of a million specific SNPs they can test. Turns out that, on the list, are FGC5253, FGC5254, and FGC5264. It would require a new cheek-swab sample and some waiting time, but the cost is only US$18 per SNP. In our hypothetical case of a Big Y-tested 3rd cousin (to whom you and/or your brother should be an autosomal DNA match for some verification that the relationship is as expected), I think I'd opt to spend the $54 and order tests for all three SNPs. One risk is that the paper trail could have an error or NPE; if so, you're out of luck and the results will come back as all negative--the money and test was basically wasted. The other risk is ordering only a single SNP: if you constrain the relationship too much by looking only for the cousin's terminal SNP or next higher, your brother might not match there but would match one more level up.

This, of course, provides you no yDNA comparison/matching info as you'd get if your brother tests with FTDNA. But if you can find the right yDNA-tested cousin who's willing to collaborate, the selective SNP testing method is an inexpensive way to "back in" to it and leverage the cousin's data and matches.

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There are limits to relying on 23 & Me for your haplogroup determination rather than finding it through Y-DNA testing. A test by a male family member at FTDNA can give you an idea straight away as to whether you've got an NPE or not. The tester will have a list of Y-DNA matches, and if the given surname is not prominent on that list of matches, or there in sufficient numbers, the chance of having an NPE is increased thereby. On the other hand, regardless of surname, there is a tangible history revealed that can be traced through the SNPs of the haplogroup back in time. White, Yellow, Black, or Mottley, there is more to a haplogroup than a few disparate surnames.

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This makes sense. I'll have to see if I can come up with anyone else... my brother has no sons, my dad is the only biological male of his generation, and I would have to go digging beyond that. Or talk my dad or brother into testing further... neither will be thrilled. :)

Answer 2

R-U106 and R-M405 are the same. You can know more here than you would with a prediction of R-M269. Your male line, like that of most western Europeans, is probably positive for that, too, but it is much farther back in time. It originated somewhere in the middle east I believe, that far back.  You're not, on your father's side, R-L21 Atlantic Celtic (Irish, some Brits), and you are R-U106 (English, Anglo-Saxon, Germanic). I'd say the people you are looking for are likely to be of English descent. If you want to know more, then you need for a male family member to take the FTDNA Y-DNA test at a certain level, probably at the 67 or 111 marker level, on top of joining the White Surname DNA Project. You can get an idea of just what that might be by cruising over to the White Surname DNA Project and checking out their results page, looking especially to those results pertaining to R-U106. It is possible that you could see the male name listed of an ancestor you would share with one of the testers. You are not likely to get any closer than that without deeper testing by a male family member.

Comments

Do you mean the White surname here, or on FTDNA? I went through the one here as best I could and didn't come up with any test takers in the R-M405 or U-106. I joined the surname project on FTDNA but haven't had a chance to dig in yet.

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An FTDNA test of R1b defaults to predicted R-M269 without more specific or deeper testing. If you know, as you have learned from 23 and Me, that your paternal line is R-M405/R-U106/R-S21, you know a little more than you would get from a simple Y-DNA test by a male family member at FTDNA. If your male family member had Y-DNA matches at FTDNA, those matches are likely to be in the same lineage as that which shows up in your WikiTree White pedigree, or close to it.

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Unfortunately, he's not on FTDNA... only 23 & Me, and I talked him into setting up an account here. :) Now, I am awaiting the results of my 23 & Me test, so perhaps once I get on there and see our matches, I'll get some additional results.

Otherwise... Y-DNA tests for brother and dad for Christmas??

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If you're doing a Y-DNA test it only needs to be one of them, and I would recommend trying your father first if possible.  It's generally better to test the older generations first, although with a Y-DNA test, it's not as important.  And yes, I would wait for the Black Friday sales.

If you and your father have both tested at 23&Me, you can upload these to FTDNA, My Heritage and of course GEDMatch to increase your match options.

Answer 3

23&me does not do Y-DNA. More than likely it was FTDNA. If you can log into his account and add yourself as manager, then you can see matches of others tested through FT-DNA. There are a number of projects which may include your brothers Haplagroup. If more test are required, his blood is on file.

You can call them if you need help accessing his account.

Comments

23andMe and other test providers such as Living DNA do give some high-level haplogroup information.  AncestryDNA does not call out a haplogroup but male test-takers can download their results and use tools on the internet that will analyze the file and make a guess at the haplogroup. I went through the process and can confirm that the guess matched results elsewhere including FTDNA.

FTDNA does not go much further with their STR tests and one would have to go with their BIGY700 tests to get a more refined haplogroup or, alternatively, buy a similar test at yseq.net (some folks would also consider Dante Labs but there have been some negative reports).

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This is what I was getting at.  I probably misspoke... it is through 23 & Me, so it's not a full Y-DNA, but I was talking about the Y haplogroup.

Answer 4

Join the "White" surname project at FTDNA.  
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/white/about

Comments

I actually just uploaded info and joined the FTDNA site, as well as the project, yesterday. Haven't had a chance to check it out thoroughly yet.

I went through the White surname DNA here on WT, and checked as many individual test takers as I could find, and came up with nothing. So unless I can convince dad or brother to take a full y-DNA, hopefully the FTDNA site will point me in the right direction.

Answer 5

The R-M405 haplotype from 23 & Me is too broad to be of use for genealogy except for disproving a relationship with others with a different haplotype. To find people with whom you/your brother might share a common male ancestor in the genealogical time frame (say, the last 600 years), your brother should get a Y-DNA test done at Family Tree DNA (FTDNA). FTDNA will then give you/your brother, a list of other test takers who are a "match".

Answer 6

23 and Me doesn't give precise haplogroups. The Big Y-700 at Family Tree DNA gives a precise haplogroup (and so do some whole genome sequencing companies).

The cheaper tests at Family Tree DNA give imprecise haplogroups. 23 and Me gives imprecise haplogroups (whether or not they're more or less accurate than the cheaper tests at Family Tree DNA); however (and this is a big however), 23 and Me just gives you the name of the haplogroup (and tells you what your DNA relatives' are); Family Tree DNA doesn't /just/ tell you the name of the haplogroup; they tell you how closely related you are on your Y-DNA (yes, they do that on the cheaper tests, as well as the more expensive ones). 23 and Me tests some Y-DNA markers, but they don't seem to do any matching with them as far as I can tell (I think they just use them for determining haplogroup names and health data). Family Tree DNA is able to find your closest Y-DNA matches and put them at the top of the list (and they tell you your genetic distance to them on the Y-chromsome specifically, without using autosomal DNA to do it).

The more expensive Y-DNA tests at Family Tree DNA can give you more accurate matches than the cheapest ones, but if you're only worried about close relatives, they're probably going to show up even with the cheapest ones.

The Big Y-700 (which I've taken) gives you your precise haplogroup. Not only that, they also tell you special mutations that you have on it.

The mtFull test has essentially the same features as the Big Y-700, with regard to matching genetic distance, telling mutations and such, and it also gives a precise mtDNA haplogroup. I've taken it, too.

The main drawback with the Family Tree DNA Y-DNA and mtDNA tests is that they need more testers. So, test! :) I think the mtFull test has a lot more testers than the Big Y-700, honestly (probably because it costs a lot less and both women and men can take the mtFull test), but I think they're both worth taking.