What is the LNAB for Suthen/Sybil of Scotland?

+3 votes
951 views

Sybil/Suthen married Duncan I of Scotland. Her parents are unknown, but she's said to be Dane... and somehow related to Siward, Earl of Northumbria (possibly cousin, sister or daughter).

 

This has brought about confusion, and resulted in at least 7 duplicate profiles, with differing LNABs. Which one is the correct profile for her final ID?

 

Please see Duncan I's profile to look at her numerous profiles.

WikiTree profile: Duncan I King of Scots
in Policy and Style by Living Ogle G2G6 Mach 3 (31.4k points)

1 Answer

+1 vote

Here is what the Foundation of Medieval Genealogy has to say about her:  [SIBYLLA], [cousin of SIWARD Earl of Northumbria, daughter of ---].  The Chronicle of John of Fordun records that the mother of Malcolm and Donald Bane, Duncan’s sons, was "the cousin of Earl Siward".  This information is not included in any earlier source and should be considered dubious.  In one earlier king list, King Malcolm III's mother is named "Suthen".  No reference has been found in primary sources to her being named Sibylla, the name found in many secondary sources. 

With her parents unknown I don't believe she can accurately be described as someones daughter which rules out three of the choices. The geographic doesn't really do anything as it applies to her cousin and not her so I would also eliminate those. That sort of just leaves "Unknown". Then there is the question of her first name "Sybil", "Suthen" or "Sibylla"?

If she was my ancestor and I was creating a profile for her in my personal genealogy program - I wouldn't! There isn't enough known about her. I think there should be a paragraph/section referring to her in her husband's profile that explains the little that is known about her and the theories around her name.

Sybil (Siwardsdatter)

 Sybilla B. (Bjornsdatter)

Sybill (Northumberland)

 Suthen (Siwardsdottir)

 Sybilla (Uknown)

 Sybill (Northumbria)

by Eugene Quigley G2G6 Mach 8 (81.9k points)
Unfortunately Unknown is mis-spelled, otherwise it would also be my choice as the one profile to merge all the others into, but I do think that Unknown is the correct LNAB.  Also Suthen seems to be the name that is used in the oldest source.

There is more discussion about her in The Henry Project see here http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/suthe000.htm

However I think she should have a profile, where some of these dubious names/relationships can be discussed, which also would preclude someone from recreating such a profile.
The only "source" that gives her a name only says she was Malcolm's mother - it doesn't say she was Duncan's wife or Donald's mother.

This would suggest that she ought to be removed from the wife and mother slots leaving them unknown.

But then there's the question of what to do with her spurious kids and parents and her other husband.  There doesn't seem to be much point in dismantling a fictitious family group if all the members then have to be left lying around.  Maybe they should be left connected, but detached from reality, in a state that represents the fiction.
Isn't there a Chinese quote, something about 'a thousand mile journey starts with the first step'?

If we can merge and clean up Suthen's profile, then we concentrate on family connections.

Ok, so do you think the following format will help members find her best, and comply with project standards:

First name: Suthen

Nickname: Sybil

Middlename: Bjornsson (?) or Siwardsdatter << I question both of these (as there's no proof), but the profile of Suthen Sybil Bjornsson is the one that has the best research explaining the various mysteries... and some people seem to look for her as Siward's daughter.

LNAB: Uknown

CLN: of Scotland

That's what I'm aiming for, but I want to consult before going for a final merge ID. There is a PPP, but it's not the right number either. Even if she was from Northumbria, it's still not the lowest ID.
I think that is reasonable and covers all the naming standards.

Good work on this Bree.
Thank-you, John!

The requests for merges have been issued, but I think some help might be needed removing the PPP on:

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bjornsdatter-3

And if necessary... putting it on the new main profile ID:

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Unknown-275536
Made changes to PPP on those 2 profiles

Related questions

+3 votes
2 answers
+8 votes
2 answers
+8 votes
1 answer
300 views asked Feb 6, 2016 in Genealogy Help by Vic Watt G2G6 Pilot (360k points)
+9 votes
2 answers
+14 votes
2 answers
+11 votes
1 answer
+8 votes
1 answer
+7 votes
3 answers
+2 votes
1 answer

WikiTree  ~  About  ~  Help Help  ~  Search Person Search  ~  Surname:

disclaimer - terms - copyright

...