Is there a place category for Vásárosnamény, Beregszász, Hungary?

+4 votes
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This is where my grandmother was born and I have already added profiles for about 100 or more family members who lived there.  Looking under both Hungary and Kingdom of Hungary, I didn't find this place ... or maybe it's there, but I don't recognize it by its correct name.

Vásárosnamény, Beregszász, Hungary is the best I can find for the place name in English, which I have been using in biographies (for dates in 1800's).  I have been entering Vásárosnamény, Beregszász, Magyarország as birth/death/marriage places in the data section.  If this is not correct, please let me know what is correct - I'm terminally challenged in matters of history and geography.

in Genealogy Help by Gaile Connolly G2G Astronaut (1.2m points)
Hi Gail, I am still finding my bearings.
I assume Vásárosnamény is a town in that was the comitatus (county) of Bereg in the Kingdom of Hungary. Beregszász was the county seat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereg_County

I do not know if anyone is making decisions about Wikitree categories in Hungary. In a case like this I guess, it is appropriate to create a category with the modern name, Vásárosnamény, in Hungary and a data location as it was around 1880 in the Kingdom of Hungary.
All I know is what it says on records, which varies greatly, and what the dropdown (that WikiTree gets from FamilySearch) says for locations when Hungarian is selected as the language.  I do know enough to know that neither what they wrote on records (which varies a lot) nor the FamilySearch list is necessarily correct.

I do have another question, though.  You mentioned Kingdom of Hungary, which is also the name used on a category here.  I have been adding ", then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire" at the end of the location in the biography section.  Should I be calling that "Kingdom of Hungary" instead?

2 Answers

+2 votes
 
Best answer
I think you're not finding the desired label because you're trying to use a city's name instead of the county. Vásárosnamény was in Bereg county. It is still in Hungary, now in the combined-remnant county of Szabolcs-Szatmár-Bereg. (The city of Beregszász, on the other hand, is now Berehovo, Ukraine.)

---

What to call the country depends on whether you think it necessary to identify the type of government in the name or not: Hungary, Kingdom of Hungary, Republic of Hungary, etc. I think that any reference to the dual monarchy, however, is superfluous or redundant. (My characterization is that the only thing the two halves had in common was the identity of the guy wearing the crown -- but it wasn't even the same crown.)
by J Palotay G2G6 Mach 8 (89.9k points)
selected by Gaile Connolly
Oh, thank you so much for answering, J - I was hoping to hear from you because I'm so sure that anything you say about this is correct.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about geography and/or politics and/or history to have any thoughts about what is necessary to identify anything!  I just need someone like you, who knows so much about it all, to tell me what to put in the place field of profiles for birth/death/dates in the 1800's on record transcriptions that say things like birth was recorded at Beregszasz and local gov't was Bereg, V-Nameny or

MarriageDate 30-Sep-1878

Marriage Town V.Nameny

Registration Town Beregszasz, Local Gov't., Bereg

Then there is the question of category.  The only possible one I can find  is Bereg, Hungary (which currently has 0 profiles in it).  If a different category is needed, what should it be and where does it belong in the category structure?

WikiTree's categories that I found are:

@Gaile. 

J knows a lot more than me about Hungary. My contribution is that I have seen a lot of the same debate in Germany and Prussia.

J reinforces my comments. Vásárosnamény was in Bereg county, in the Kingdom of Hungary which was a part of the Austria-Hungary Empire.

Over time the country boundaries change. Bereg was a county in the Kingdom of Hungary - you will not find it on a modern map. This county was subdivided between the modern countries of Hungary and Ukraine. It makes sense that 
Beregszasz was the registration town because it was the capital city of the county of Bereg. I agree with J that the city of Beregszász, on the other hand, is now Berehovo, Ukraine. 

I completely sympathise with your comment "
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about geography and/or politics and/or history to have any thoughts about what is necessary to identify anything!" It can be a nightmare.

You got that right, Steve - "nightmare" is one of the milder words I'd use for my many futile attempts to understand geography of Eastern Europe in the 1800's.  

It seems like a shell game where one single place changes the country it's in midnight on alternate Thursdays.  One family in my branch, consisting of father, mother, and about a dozen children, all lived in the same house throughout the births of all the children.  The children, however, were born in 4 different countries ... at least, as best I have been able to determine.  This nightmare propagates to language, also.  The births were registered in 5 different languages (during times when Jewish BMD events were not recognized by governments, the Catholic Church stepped in to help, registering births as baptisms and doing it in Latin) and, of course the family spoke Yiddish while the official temple documents were Hebrew, with all kinds of accompanying name variants.  Sometimes, when a government did record a birth, the LNAB is the mother's maiden name because the parents' marriage wasn't legally recognized when it happened, although the religious one was.

I've given up on all things categorization on all wiki-type platforms, so I can't answer about what is or isn't on WikiTree, or what category structure people have in mind, but I can give a simplified explanation of Hungarian jurisdictions.

Before the end of WWI, Hungary had 63 counties (vármegye "fort-bounds", often shortened to just megye). This included all of the areas under the Crown of St. Stephen, meaning the Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia as well as the Kingdom of Hungary. (See map.) There was nothing between the county and country level, but counties were technically divided into districts or circuits (járás, from jár "to go, to travel"). I say "technically" because nobody ever kept track of them: I have postcards that my great-grandparents sent to each other that give the recipient's name, village, and county.

The post-WWI period is characterized by remnant (or revenant) counties that got "temporarily" combined, and then finally reorganized in 1950 into the boundaries and names that are still mostly in effect today. (It has 19 counties plus Budapest, which is not in any county.)

There was a Great Disambiguation Project at the very end of the 1890s, which technically made "Community, Country" sufficient to uniquely identify everything in the kingdom, but "Community, County, Country" is more secure: sometimes, one place's official disambiguator could also apply to a different place, depending on the date of your map.

You've helped more than you can ever know with this.  That would mean that the place I should be putting in the data section of these profiles is Vásárosnamény, Bereg, Magyarország and the English version that I should use in the biography section is Vásárosnamény, Bereg, Hungary.

You have made the headings on the data at jewishgen.org make some sense to me, too.  They use Jaras.

Thank you, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!

The question of the recording location and the nature of official vital records is actually independent of placenames and jurisdictions (and WikiTree's categorizations of same).

The changeover date for vital records in the Kingdom of Hungary is October 1, 1895: that was the day that civil registration began. Before then, church registers were considered to be official government records, and the register where any particular event was required to be recorded was determined by the place of residence and the religion of the participants. For example, my spouse's grandfather was born in Kula, Bács-Bodrog county, where the local church was Roman Catholic. His family was Lutheran, so his birth is recorded in Cservenka, the next town north, where there was a Lutheran church. There was also a Lutheran church in the next town south, Verbász, but that's not where Lutherans of Kula were obligated to go. (All three places are now in Serbia.)

Jewish records before civil registration are a thorny topic: rampant anti-Semitism combined with rules-lawyering meant that people in power could -- and did -- deny the acceptability of Hebrew records, resulting in situations like what you described, where a marriage's validity was called into question.

(And then there's the other extreme: there were areas where the local clergy encouraged their flock to effectively boycott civil registration, especially of marriages, because they saw it as the government usurping the church's sacrament. We can't really know how many couples simply never showed up at the registry office, but we can see the ones that went through all of the motions until the last step, where they would deny their signatures.)
+2 votes
Family Search can be horribly misleading. I do not recommended it for locations in Germany or Eastern Prussia.

I think that Austro-Hungarian Empire is appropriate to add at the end of location fields after "Kingdom of Hungary". The migration categories can be listed under https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Austria-Hungary%2C_Emigrants

The equivalent migration category in the Germany Project is "Kingdom of Saxony" sitting underneath https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:German_Empire%2C_Emigrants
by Steve Thomas G2G6 Pilot (125k points)

Other members who have been helping with categories for this part of the world have made changes to my family's profiles and I figure they know what they're doing, so I just say "thank you" to them.  There used to be [[Category: Hungarian Immigrants to America]] on the ones who came to the United States, then it got removed, and a couple of days ago [[Category:Migrants from Kingdom of Hungary to New York]] got added to many of them.  That's the first time I ran into the term "Kingdom of Hungary".

About FamilySearch's location list - I fully agree, but it's better than anything I know, often providing the additional names of counties (or whatever larger entities there were) that I am missing or letting me know that the only name I have is a county, not a town, when that is the case.  It also works well to translate place names to other languages.  I am fully aware that it is not necessarily a valid source of place names, although when I lack better information, I tend to also use it to choose the right name for a time period.

For a sample of the profiles I'm talking about here, see my grandmother's

I will set that category up for you, Gaile, later tonight.

THANX a million, Maggie.  If you add the category to any one of my family profiles, I'll then know what it is and add it to the rest.  Also, if I can ask one more thing - what should I put in the profiles' location fields for this place?  From the most recent posts here, it looks like it might be Vásárosnamény, Bereg, Magyarország and the English version to use in the biography sections would be Vásárosnamény, Bereg, Hungary.

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