Pre-1500 profiles and non pre-1500 certified managers.

Question

This was the subject of some discussion in 2018 about whether non pre-1500 certified members should be able to adopt pre-1500 profiles. This discussion refers. We are still experiencing the situation where non certified members are PMs and unable to respond to requests if they are active and additional a proportion are not active so no response if forthcoming. In the previous discussion the point was made that people liked to be on the trusted list so they kept in touch with what was happening on the profile and I do consider this to be a very valid point.

In light of that and to bring the subject up for discussion again, I would like to propose the following:

A) Existing pre-1500 profiles that are orphaned.

1) Any pre-1500 certified member may adopt the profile and gets added as PM.

2) Any non pre-1500 certified when 'adopting' the profile gets added to the trusted list rather than as a PM.

B) Existing Pre-1500 profiles that are not orphaned.

1) Any pre-1500 certified member who is a PM - no change

2) Any non pre-1500 certified member currently a PM is changed to trusted list status. (This may result in orphaned profiles but these can be adopted by certified members.)

C) Creating new pre-1500 profiles

1) Any pre-1500 certified member may create a pre-1500 profile and become the PM (i.e. no change)

2) For non pre-1500 members there are two possibilities:

1) No non-pre-1500 certified member can create pre-1500 profiles.

or 2) Non pre-1500 certified members can create a pre-1500 profile but will only be on the trusted list and not become a PM.

As regards C2.1 and C2.2 options there are pros and cons for both. C2.1 is the safest route but leaves open the creating of profiles with an incorrect date of 1500 allowing editing. C2.2 might be the better option as it allows the creation of the profile with correct dates however editing will not be possible once the profile has been saved. It would need to be made clear that once they have saved they will no longer be able to edit.

EDITED TO ADD: See the discussion below about Project Accounts where we have (I think) concluded that should this proposal be accepted Project Accounts would not be affected by this. It hinges on the technical side but since the Project Account is already flagged as non-human ti should not be a problem to differentiate.

Comments

On the topic of pre-1500 profiles, there's one thing I'd like to outlaw: when there is no date of birth, or someone uses "about 1500" and "before 1500". I recently corrected some profiles where the son was born in 1505, his father was born "about 1500" and grandfather was born "before 1500". There oughta be a law!

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Your proposal includes:  " need to be made clear that once they have saved they will no longer be able to edit."  I assume that this means/hopes that the WikiTree program can distinguish between an automatic save, saved draft, and full save.

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@Dennis. I am not aware of any automatic saves, other than drafts, and I am sure the system can differentiate as I assume that is storing that information in a separate area which does not update to the main storage until the user click on the full save.

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To summarise the results of the discussion below:

Subject to it being technically possible:

A) Existing pre-1500 profiles that are orphaned.

  1) Any pre-1500 certified member may adopt the profile and gets added as PM.

  2) Any non pre-1500 certified when 'adopting' the profile gets added to the trusted list rather than as a PM.

B) Existing Pre-1500 profiles that are not orphaned.

  1) Any pre-1500 certified member who is a PM - no change

  2) Any non pre-1500 certified member currently a PM is changed to trusted list status. This is a run once routine. (This may result in orphaned profiles but these can be adopted by certified members.)

  This action should not affect Project Accounts if it is technically possible to access the non-human flag when the routine is run. IF this is the case then the following applies:

  If the profile is non-human
     Do nothing
  Else
      If the profile is human andalso the PM is pre-1500 certified
         Do nothing
      else
        Move the PM to the trusted list.

C) Creating new pre-1500 profiles

  1) Any pre-1500 certified member may create a pre-1500 profile and become the PM (i.e. no change)

  2) Non pre-1500 certified members cannot create pre 1500 profiles

The current status and abilities of a Project Account will not change in any way and no Project Accounts will be removed as PMs.

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It is good that we are talking about this again. I agree with Michael and Helen about C2.

Profile creation is not only a kind of edit, but in fact the most important type of edit in terms of irreversibility and difficulty of repair.

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@Andrew. Yes I think that it has been decided that C will be as per the comment of mine immediately above yours.

I guess nothing much will happen about this until the decision makers return from Roots Tech but I am hopeful that this time we can get this implemented.

Answer 1

David, I think this proposal has a lot of potential.  Thank you for bringing this discussion up again.  I have one question:  Your proposal does not address Project Accounts that manage pre-1500 profiles.  How would you propose to handle that?  Otherwise, I think this is a giant step in the right direction.

Comments

I think I get what you mean Amy, that projects would have to have special dispensation to be a PM of a pre-1500 profile. Either that or a project like the EP would need to be allowed to have pre-1500 privileges. I'm sure one or other could be allowed in the coding.

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@Lizzie and @Jo. It is very simple. A project profile already has the distinction that it is a non-human profile as displayed on the profile page. Since it has that flag in place already the basics that are require to either prevent being thrown off or allowed to edit pre-1500 are already there. The rest is simple programming. As to the pre-1500 bit I actually quite like your comment @Jo that although it is a pain not having the Project Account certified gives some extra accountability. If we go down that route then the flag of non-human simply says do not remove this profile.

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Wow. I really, really would like to see all non-certified pms moved to the trusted list, but Amy 's question is the kicker. I think that means the system would automatically move projects to the trusted list, making it impossible for projects to manage pre-1500 profiles. And I don't see any safe way to make projects certified, because it would be a 'back-door' way of getting certification that could be used by projects who have no certified leaders, and it would also be impossible to know who to hold accountable for any edits (i.e. who was using the project account). What a conundrum.

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@Jen, no it doesn't. See above which I was typing while you were. Simple flag saying hands off, which is already in place (the flag)

ETA:
IF the profile is non-human
   do nothing
Else
    If the profile is human andalso pre-1500 certified
       do nothing
    else
        remove the pm

ETA typo

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I suppose the issue then is that as an England Leader I would be able, in theory do anything I liked when I’m signed in as the Project Account, despite me not being pre-1500 certified. I could apply for pre-1500 as I did the pre-work years ago with Vivienne! However I have absolutely no desire for the badge as I don’t need it, or want it!

David has suggested, therefore I would have to step down as a leader. I’ve been a leader in the project a long time so that would be a shame.

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I dint think that is what David was saying at all @Lizzie.  I think he's suggesting a way to identify the Project Profile as non human, and therefore it would remain as PM. You would continue to work as you always have.

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@Lizzie. No I think we are going down the route of ONLY looking at the human/non-human status as the decider on whether a PM gets shuffled to the trusted list. This then does not affect anything to do with the abilities of a Project Account.

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Apologies, I was still going from your first answer to Amy, where you suggested non pre-1500 shouldn’t be leaders within projects that need it. I misread where it switched, and didn’t understand until I read it a few times! :-)

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I do not think it really matters whether the project leaders are per 1500 certified or not.   Leaders are responible people,  That is one of the reasons that they are made a leader in the first place.  I think it is very unlikely that a leader would use the project account to bypass WikiTree rules.

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@Lizzie. No problem. I think we have a solution now. That is the joy of discussion! Just need to hear from Ales on the technical side.

Edit for typo: One day I will spell 'from' correctly (i.e. not form) first time.

Answer 2

In case people are not aware, if you read the Pre-1500 Help page, we have a process for people who are not badged to create Pre-1500 profiles that is working and keeps duplicates and poorly sourced profiles from being created.

The subject of people who try to get around the Pre-1500 requirements.....anyone who does that can be handled via our Problems with Members Process.

Comments

It would be great if that would lead to a pre 1500 certification for those that only want it for there one name study etc

Answer 3

For C2.1 versus C2.2.  Pre-1500 certification is based on demonstrating an understanding of the sources and approaches required in these early profiles. C2.2 says that despite not having this you can create a profile, but if you make a typo while doing that only the certified can correct it.

I think that creating a pre-1500 profile is a pre-1500 edit, and should be limited to those who are certified as in C2.1. Otherwise we risk people adding non-existent individuals they have found in online trees, or based on other unreliable sources, but only the pre-1500 certified members being able to clear up the mess. There may be some problems close to the 1500 boundary as you suggest, but the majority of medieval and earlier profiles will be protected from addition of spurious family members.

Comments

Thank you for your input Andrew. I certainly hope we can resolve the current problems without causing too much stress!

Answer 4

Personally, as a not pre-1500's person, I would hate to create the work on a pre-1500's profile and then be barred from updating it. So I don't think non pre-1500's people should be allowed to create profiles.

Secondly non pre-1500's people should not be allowed to adopt profiles at all. I had an issue with someone who had adopted a duplicate profile and then refused to change it. Why adopt a profile when you can't do anything with it?

Thanks for asking.

Comments

Thank you for your input Elizabeth. This is what we hope to resolve.

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Non certified people cannot currently adopt profiles. That is true for Pre 1500, as well as Pre 1700.

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Thank you Linda. A move in the right direction which we just need to expand.

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I have a couple that I adopted but they did not have dates then I added sources etc and the dates and got locked out.

After adding so much info etc I would not be happy to be deleted some manager

I would like to see a bit of a change to getting pre 1500 certified I adopt many profiles and am always working to find sources but they would not be up to pre 1500 standards so am I being punished for doing that? If I understand your profiles all have to be up to pre 1500 standards?? to be certified?

I also only (that is a full time job) work on a one name study but if you are pre 1500 certified you are suppose? to work on all pre 1500???  I am sure that I can improve and add great sources to some that may never get added otherwise.

Maybe we need an apprentice pre 1500 certification through a project where you are only allowed 1 or 2 a month that was then checked by the project and if not up to par your back to no pre 1500???

Maybe the same for those that are managers today give them a chance to improve before removing them??

see https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Nesbit-144

after I got locked out before I finished I used the comments to add more note info

Answer 5

I would be extremely unhappy with option C2, allowing those without pre-1500 certification to create pre-1500 profiles. This would go against the whole purpose of pre-1500 certification.

As someone who spends an extensive amount of time clearing up erroneous information for pre-1500 profiles, I can confidently say that, if we allow those without pre-1500 certification to create pre-1500 profiles, the end result will include a lot of extra work to be done clearing up wrong relationships, wrong information, and people who did not exist. We have a huge legacy of such problems from the early years of WikiTree when anyone could create pre-1500 profiles, and we do not want to add to this.

A few well-meaning and over-enthusiastic members could quickly add a very large number of additional problem profiles based on dubious sources like online trees and old unreliable books of family history - and I am sure this would happen, just as it happened before current pre-1500 restrictions were introduced.

As others have said, it would be essential to ensure that Project management of profiles was unaffected.

Comments

Thank you for your input Michael.

Answer 6

I agree with  sections A and B, C1 and C2(1)  

Like other respondants, I don't.agree with C2(2). I would hate  to see us to return to the situation where anyone can create pre 1500 profiles. It re-opens the door for whole lines of spurious ancestors such as the Wheeler line . Profiles such as that for Patty Sue Milk would once more be able to be created 

I don't foresee any problem with non-certified project leaders making poor edits.  (A  lot of the time I see them having to spend time deleting comments  on project managed profiles proclaiming that so and so is an ancestor).

Is there  a means for members to be  notified if they are removed from management to the trusted list?  From time to time we do see annoyance when a PM realises they can't edit a long neglected profile. I can foresee that it could also cause anoyance if a pm is automatically  removed following an edit by another member that results in a previously post 1500 profile becoming pre 1500. 

Comments

Perhaps an edit that shifts a profile to pre-1500 should be added to the list of things where contact with the PM is recommended before editing.

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Thank you for your input Helen. I think we are now getting a clear picture of what is needed.

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If someone is not certified and they change a date to pre-1500, the profile cannot be saved because a message is shown that they are not certified to edit the profile.

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Excellent. That removes one of the problems that used to exist.

Answer 7

I am 100% against allowing people that are not pre-1500 certified to create a pre-1500 profile.  I've been the leader of the European Aristocrats Project for several years -- back before any of the country projects or pre-1500 certification existed -- and started the Medieval Project which I now co-lead with Michael Cayley and John Atkinson.  It is a never-ending job working on the thousands of junk profiles that were created before pre-1500 certification was put into place.  We simply must not allow more pre-1500 profiles to be created without solid evidence and sources.

Comments

Very much agree.

Answer 8

I have no problem with this so long as when people take the time to submit requests to be certified someone actually responds.  I submitted a request in 2019, and tried to follow up a few times and just gave up.