Why is content of Dutch province categories removed? [closed]

Question

The Dutch Roots project  put a lot of effort in adding content to the Dutch province categories, like Zeeland. A new setup is apparently being done, employing the template CategoryInfoBox Location. Content present before this setup now is gone: Friesland.

Will Friesland content be restored?

Is this how courtesy and respect is to be interpreted on WikiTree?

Comments

The CIB includes a parameter to link to a free-space page. You could save the contents of the category pages to a free-space page (which you can just call "Zeeland" for now, and when the CIB is in place link to that free-space page. Granted the content would no longer be visible on the category page itself, but it would be only one click away.

(I know this does not answer your question, just trying to find a reasonable solution. Category pages should not have a lot of content, only very basic information to understand what the category is about and what to put in it).

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Thanks for the hint, Isabelle!

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There is no need for a Freespaces with information about locations, A link to Wikipedia is a lot better, and for the most locations available.

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Then, Joop, why complain that the text content of category pages was gone, if there is no need for it as you say?

Sorry, I don't understand the point.

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The text on the categorypage give a short information about, in this case Flevoland. Behind that there is a link to Wikipedia for extensive information. So what I say, there is no need for a freespace page with extensive information for Flevoland because  its already on Wikipedia .

Answer 1

Jan, 

Category pages should not hold much in the way of text. A brief description of the grouping in that category, how to add subcategories (if it's not a landing level category), and perhaps a small image. Details and expanded information should be included on a free-space page with a link to the category (and to the free-space from the category). See the help: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Category_Creation_and_Removal#Briefly_describe_the_purpose_of_the_category

Nobody means any disrespect to your work or your project. 

CIBs are starting to be added to locations. We have them being installed in England categories by England Project. Here is an example:https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Eyton%2C_Hertfordshire

We have added a few to US locations as well:https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Category:Grabill%2C_Indiana.

Comments

Every Dutchman is supposed to know all Dutch laws. Apparently the same goes on WikiTree, every member is supposed to know all WikiTree rules. You don't know the rule about limited category page content? Well, tough luck, we'll just throw it away.

Suppose profile pages didn't have a change tab and I deleted some page content on one of your profiles, without warning, without keeping the deleted content saved for recovery?

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I'd see the deleted content in the changes, because it does exist. Category changes can also be seen and changes can be undone, since those are capabilities we have and can use.

I remind you that WikiTree is a collaborative site and that we don't "own" the profiles or the categories, though we may manage them.

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These category pages belong to the Dutch Roots Project. Are these adjustments discussed with the Dutch Roots Project Leaders?

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I do not see any option on a category page to restore an earlier version, like I can on a profile page. I started my reply with Suppose etc. but apparently you cannot imagine the absence of a change tab which would make it impossible to revert to a previous version.

There is no need to lecture me on collaboration, I did not mention  nor imply "ownership" of content. I just expressed, rightfully so, in a questioning manner, my amazement on the uncommunicated action.

And my question Will Friesland content be restored? is not answered.

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Sometimes rules change without notice.  Adding text content to category pages used to be encouraged by the Categorization Project, in its previous incarnations.  Then I think Chris decided it didn't fit in with his long term plans.

Note that renaming operations (which the project will do without warning) will permanently destroy content stored in page histories.  So don't rely on the notion that nothing has been deleted.

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Yes RJ, onward and downward we go.

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OK, thanks Natalie fot the expanation, so we can undo your changes like it was.

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Joop, just to clarify, the categories do not belong to the Dutch Roots project any more than profiles are owned. They are a collaborative tool that are shared by all members.

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Good morning Steven,

We, the Dutch Roots project coordinators, waren't informed that the lay out of the relevant categorypages was under discussion. What we known was the consultation between you and Bea about the format about placenames.

I now know, from Bea, that you made some examples. We are used to that Bea always informed us quickly but she was busy this weekend, so some delay and this misunderstanding erose.

The bar I used for the provincies is the same that is used for many years in the categorypage Nederland and designed by Martin Grifhorst a formal DRP-Leader.. My idea was, for the provinces, a bar in top, short information bilangual about the provence a link to Wikipedia and a few links to Archives where you can find sources, for example Zeeuwengezocht.nl.

In the pages of places no bar, short introduction of the place, link to Wikipedia and a few direct links to archives of that place for example churchbooks of Arnemuiden via Familysearch.

In this way you can make these category pages useful. Click on the category of a city and you have, via the links, direct acces to source information .

That the categoriepages not belong to a project I know, therefore our first shock reaction, does this happen without Consultation? We know now better....

Answer 2

To add to what Natalie said, most of the content is still present but the multilingual aspect has been moved into the proper language structure. That is, the English version shows up on the English language page and the Dutch language shows up on the Dutch language pages. Navigating between languages is done on the yellow line at the top of the category.

Comments

Look to the category Flevoland, Nederland and you will see that Harris-5439 make the two last contributions, Also the category Friesland Nederland

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Look at Category:Drenthe,_Nederland. No Flag or cote of arms. It is the same with Category:Gelderland,_Nederland , Category:Groningen,_Nederland , Category:Limburg,_Nederland , Category:Noord-Brabant,_Nederland , Category:Noord-Holland,_Nederland , Category:Overijssel,_Nederland , Category:Utrecht,_Nederland , Category:Zeeland,_Nederland and Category:Zuid-Holland,_Nederland .

The only difference between the boxes on those categories and the two with CIB's on them is the CIB's do not include the Capital city of the province. They can be added in the descriptive blurb easily. They are also one language rather than two in the descriptive blurb underneath the box. The English versions have the English translation on them and no Dutch language. 

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That some pages are not changed yet is due to it being done by a person and it takes time and the changes are "in progress". Currently, Category pages are supposed to be in a single language.

I updated both language versions of Friesland to show what can be done to make things closer to what was in the version prior to adding the CIB. I also made the images work.

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Joop, as mentioned in previous communications, the policy you are writing is for location fields on a profile, and are not the full category policies. While they may be similar, we have to remember that this is for landing level profiles only, and it may not apply to higher-level categories, since the higher-level categories exist for our own organizational and navigational purposes.

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OK, but in my opinion is the category of, for example, a city a low level or landing category and has folow the role that:

"Category names of places folow the same principles as the location fields."  

For me a very clear, logic and simple role. So [[Category:Rotterdam, The Netherlands]] is wrong, has to be [[Category:Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Nederland]] in that format.

If project roles are different from the general Wikitree roles then the question arise, wich role should I folow. Especially since categories can be made by every Wikitreeër.

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The flags and cote of arms are there. Maybe it' s something with the software of hardware of your device that it not shown up.

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Joop, the images are hosted on unlisted space pages, so they will only show to those who are PMs or on the Trusted List.

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Yes you are right Steven, these are hosted on a unlisted Dutch Roots Page.

I din't know about that, I will change the privacy level.

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I change the privacy level in Public.I hope this wil do..

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I saw the templates on the categorypages of Middelburg and Friesland.

They are realy nice and in my opinion a good replacement for the bars..

Answer 3

Also the content in the page of the provincie Flevoland, Nederland is changed.

Answer 4

Some of the edits you see are mine. This was done in order to bring the categories up to the standards as listed in the help pages. I have been in contact with both Joop and Bea about these since the changes being done in the Dutch structure was not collaborated with the Categorization Project, we're being setup incorrectly according to current practices and we're causing errors.

No further changes are being made at this time until the Dutch Roots project has had time to submit a proposal as requested.

Comments

.... was not collaborated with the Categorization Project....

This is not true!!!!

​​​​Before I started I contacted Natalie, leader of the categorization project, via the private email and tell her who I was and what I was going to do. Explaned why and  give an example [[Category: Middelburg, Zeeland, Nederland]] how it was going to be.

Also I tell her that I want to use the EditBot

She reacted positive and suggested to Whitlist me for the EditBot.

Also I keep Bea informed, before and after the conversations.

So, dont tell I was not collaborating...

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Joop, let me try and rephrase that. It was late for me and that did not come out how it was intended.

The point I was trying to get across is that the two projects were not fully in sync or understanding of the changes that were going to be made. From the emails the categorization project received, we were under the impression that only the Dutch language categories were being cleaned up. Once we saw that the English category structure was being renamed and deleted, we asked for the pause so we could collaborate further and come to a full understanding of what was being proposed.

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Yes thats how its wents.

The misunderstanding has arisen about what we basically mean by Dutch categories. In my opinion: all categories related to Dutch placenames, regardless of the language in wich it is written. In your opinion apparently categories of placenames written in the Dutch languages.

Oh well I see the humor in it, keep smiling, just keep going on... and the misunderstandings have now been clarified.

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Happy things are clarified and we'll try to get a proposal ready after the Clean-a-Thon Steven. I know you all also are only trying very hard to just keep things as clear and consistent as possible for everyone and it for sure isn't easy, noticed there also is a  DBE Category suggestions list is this list only meant for categorization project members or is it ok if datadoctors or members interested in categorization would help with these suggestions as well ? 

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Any member can work on clearing the errors, we would just ask that they coordinate with one of our Team Leaders to ensure there is no duplication of effort on anyone's part. Since the report is only run once a day, this will allow us to better monitor the changes when we know which members are working on specific error lists.

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Ok thanks Steven, with the Clean-a-Thon coming up it's handy to know what you prefer.

Answer 5

Hi everyone I'm really so so sorry this happened, and I'm affraid it's my fault and just a huge misunderstanding, while you all (Dutch Roots Team) were busy with preparing things for the Clean-a-Thon and things, Joop contacted Natalie because he wanted to work on correcting, renaming, merging and organizing a few Dutch place name categories that were created, Joop was whitelisted ( and we figured that meant it was ok to work on this), but  it was a few years ago since we last worked on this, the last time I think was when all the empty or unused categories had to be deleted and wrong ones had to be renamed, so we probably missed there were some other or again new changes, as we all know there have been quite a few changes these past few years, not only for categories and categorization, but for projects, gedcom imports and all kinds of things, so it's not always easy to keep track of every single change eeh.  

Just when Joop had send me a message he was ready with working on them, Natalie contacted me to let me know they were worried about a problem that occured now with some of the parralel ones and mentioned there now was this aka template that should be used. We were not aware of the (for us new) template, so I of course asked if things could be explained a bit with perhaps an example and to Joop as well, so he would also know what the problem was exactly and if and how it should or could be corrected.  

Steven then contacted us and we agreed to work on a proposal for the Dutch place categories after the Clean-a-Thon. So I assume Steven just created one or two examples for us because I had requested this in my email to Natalie, what we didn't realize or had discussed was that these categories besides the aka template now would end up empty, so it was an unexpected and unpleasant surprise for Joop as you probably can imagine, because he has spend a lot of work on them, and I'm not a real category expert, so although I know categories now no longer should have too much info I also didn't know they should be this empty..but.. if I get it correct this only is how the landing categories should look like ? So for the place name categories it's different ?

Hope you all can forgive me I didn't respond quick enough (to prevent this G2G)

Comments

Hi Bea, as far as I'm concerned, everything is now clarified. There were some misunderstandings about whats was happening and the definition about Dutch categories. No problem keep smiling and go on. I saw the templates that Steven placed in the categoriepages of Middelburg en Friesland. They look good and as far I'm concerned a good replacement for the bar I used, a design I think from Martijn Grifhorst years ago.

I changed the privacy level from the Nederlands Portaal Managers from unlisted to Public because the images I used are stored there. Now everyone can see them and not only PM en trusted people.

So far so good....

Gr. Joop

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Thank you Joop, happy when you are and happy things are ok now, my husband has the same motto, just keep smiling and move on and so love it, it's a positive one and always seems to work best