Can we use templates for paternal and maternal ancestry that has been confirmed through yDNA and mtDNA tests?

Question

This is being spun off from "How can we use Y haplotype matching to confirm direct paternal lines?"

 

Someday, it's likely that WikiTree will have a special system for showing family lines that have been confirmed through DNA testing. However, this will require new databases, programs, and user interfaces. We're not ready to do this.

 

In the meantime, we've decided to experiment with tools that are already available on WikiTree. One of these tools is "templates".

 

Templates can be somewhat complicated to understand at first, but once you get the hang of them they're really powerful.

 

They are handy anytime there is a block of text with special formatting that you want to appear on many profiles. For example, Template:Bahamas is a very simple project template. By putting {{Bahamas}} in the text of a profile it takes an image and a block of text saying "This person is part of a Bahamian family" etc. from Template:Bahamas and puts it in the profile. See Peter Roberts' profile for how it looks. That's achieved just by putting {{Bahamas}} in the text of his profile.

 

More advanced templates include variables. For example, on Template:Migrating_Ancestor you indicate the country the person emigrated from and immigrated to, and their flags.

 

I created a rough draft of a Confirmed Y-Chromosome DNA Match template.

 

Here is the template in action on two profiles (father and grandfather of Peter) where the same variables are used: Roberts-7101 and Roberts-7102.

 

Here is the page that creates the template and explains how to use it:

Template:YDNA_Match.

 

That's just a very rough draft.

 

We can play with the formatting and text as much as we want. Any time we edit Template:YDNA_Match it will change the box that appears on all the profiles that are using it.

 

We don't want to play with the variables too much. Or rather, we want to get those settled first, before people start using the template on a widespread basis. Otherwise people would have to edit all the profiles where they used the template.

 

Comments

I love the logo design - but I am thinking it should be down-sized just a bit; I feel it crowds the text a bit and I imagine it would be even more noticeable if I was using a lower screen resolution.

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Hey Rob! I was hoping you'd help out. Want to play with the image sizing? Try at a thumbnail? I figure other stuff should be tightened up eventually too.

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If I can get some time in front of my desktop I'll try to look at the image size... the laptop I normally work from reacts oddly if I change the screen resolution or colour depth.

Essentially the current layout looks like this:

Image	Title
	blank	Text
		List Item List Item

I think how the title, text, and list appear together looks "jagged", and the extra indenting of the list also contributes to the 'crowded' feel of the text. My suggestions would be to:

a) center the title over the text or center the title over the entire box - right now it seems to be doing it's own thing.

b) change the margin and padding of the list so the numbers align with the text above or get rid of the list element entirely and put numbers 1 and 2 into their own column with a right align so they appear to be negative indented.

c) since the number of characters (not including the profile IDs) is longer for the list items - particularly considering the comments that can appear under list item 1 could be lengthy. it might make sense to have them span the entire profile box

In any solution I would keep the blank column (which actually contains em spaces) to the right of the image because (the last time I checked) some in-use browsers still have problems with padding in table cells.

Some possible examples:

Image Image Image Image		Y-Chromosome DNA Confirmed
		Person-1's direct paternal relationship to Person-2 is confirmed because:
		1. The results of this yDNA test of Person-3 and this yDNA test of Person-4 are a close match. 36/37 markers. 2. The most recent common ancestor in the yDNA line of Person-3 and the yDNA line of Person-4 is Person-2.

 

Y-Chromosome DNA Confirmed
Image Image Image Image			Person-1's direct paternal relationship to Person-2 is confirmed because:
		1.	The results of this yDNA test of Person-3 and this yDNA test of Person-4 are a close match. 36/37 markers.
		2.	The most recent common ancestor in the yDNA line of Person-3 and the yDNA line of Person-4 is Person-2.

 

Image Image Image Image		Y-Chromosome DNA Confirmed
		Person-1's direct paternal relationship to Person-2 is confirmed because:
The results of this yDNA test of Person-3 and this yDNA test of Person-4 are a close match. 36/37 markers. The most recent common ancestor in the yDNA line of Person-3 and the yDNA line of Person-4 is Person-2.

 

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It appaars your last example may save the most space.  In order to save a bit more,  "1. The results of this yDNA..."  could be changed to "1. This yDNA...."  ?   I believe it would have the same meaning.

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I made some style adjustments:

• The table is more like Rob's last suggestion, so it's much tighter.
• I shrunk the image (by setting the display width with "|75px").
• There is a blue background on the headline. Very subtle, so it shouldn't offend Lianne. ;-)
• I removed the "The results of".

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Some finer points to consider.   It is the direct paternal relationship (i.e. the direct paternal lilne ancestry) back to the most recent common ancestor which confirmed.  Would it be more helpful if the headline said "Y-Chromosome DNA Confirmed Line" or "yDNA  Confirmed Ancestral Line" or "yDNA Confirmed Direct Paternal line"?

I don't believe number 2 is a reason for the confirmation.  It is a fact which identifies the most recent direct paternal line ancestor and he is where the confirmation of this direct paternal line currently ends.

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It would be more convient if, for example, "yDNA line of Roberts-7266" linked to http://www.wikitree.com/treewidget/Roberts-7266/89#Y rather than the current http://www.wikitree.com/treewidget/Roberts-7266/89

Same for the link for person2

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Good point about adding the #Y anchor links. Super easy.

Although you have to know how to decipher it, this is how easy: http://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Template%3AYDNA_Match&diff=15289365&oldid=15286881

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I am not up-to-speed on the whole DNA genealogy so I am staying out of what the clearest text content is, but stylistically speaking I think the new layout is cleaner, and as you say, much tighter. The new image size puts it more in scale with the images typically used on other templates (flags and coats of arms for example) which I think is good.

The blue background on the headline is definitely very subtle (I had a hard time seeing it on a darkened screen) - If you are going to use colour to visually distinguish Y-DNA from mtDNA templates I think it needs to be just a touch less subtle - perhaps it would be better to apply colours to the <td> element instead of to the <span> and also center the title in it's cell.

Try out this code and see if you like the result.

<includeonly>
{{Profile-box|1=
<table><tr><td rowspan="2">[[Image:WikiTree_Images-12.png|75px]]</td><td style="background-color:#eeeeff;text-align:center">'''Y-Chromosome DNA Confirmed'''</td></tr><tr><td>[http://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:Relationship&action=calculate&person1_name={{PAGENAME}}&person2_name={{{common}}} {{PAGENAME}}'s direct paternal relationship to {{{common}}}] is confirmed because:</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"><ol>
<li>[{{{testURL1}}} This yDNA test of {{{person1}}}] and [{{{testURL2}}} this yDNA test of {{{person2}}}] are a close match. {{{comments| }}}</li>
<li>The most recent common ancestor in the [http://www.wikitree.com/treewidget/{{{person1}}}/89 yDNA line of {{{person1}}}] and the [http://www.wikitree.com/treewidget/{{{person2}}}/89 yDNA line of {{{person2}}}] is [[{{{common}}}]].</li>
</ol></td></tr></table>
}}</includeonly>

As an alternative, or in addition to, distinguishing by colour you might consider differentiating the templates for Y-DNA and mtDNA by mirroring the image location so for mtDNA the image would appear on the right (tongue in cheek - my wife reminds me all the time that "the woman is always right" :D )

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Thanks, Rob! Feel free to experiment and try your design changes.

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They are subtle changes, but they are done... and they can always be reversed if need be ;)

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That looks great, Chris! I like it. Good job!

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Very nice, Rob. Thanks!

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Update: Should we still be recommending DNA Confirmed templates now that we have Confirmed with DNA status indicators?

 

 

Answer 1

Using the Robert's example, would it be possible to word it top down?

such as:

yDNA Confirmed MRCA

Roberts-7101

The test of Robert-7266 and the test of Roberts-7085 are a close match. 36/37 markers.

where the words 'test' would be links.

 

 

Comments

James, I really ilke your suggestion because it is so concise.  My reservation is some people not understanding "MRCA" Most Recent Common Ancestor which in this case is direct paternal line.  

With the template for mtDNA confirmed MRCA it would be direct maternal line.

Answer 2

I think this is a fantastic idea.  Regarding the template proposed the only thing i would like to see added is a direct link on the template to the common ancestor in this case, Roberts-7104 (it is in the text but not a link).  Otherwise it is two clicks to see the common ancestor.

One further comment, this is clearly for where we know the common ancestor.  Can we have a similiar template for where we have close matches (in my case 67/67 for Coat-61 to descendants of Bennet-95) but at present are unclear of how/where the connection occurs?  We need this to alert the other branches to consider these other lines.  The current system of populating up the line where tests are taken, isnt alerting the other 'more likely' line of the possible alternate genealogies.

Comments

Hi Veronica.

Good point about the link to the common ancestor. Done!

I also like what you're saying about using a template when the common ancestor is unknown. Can you sketch up an example of exactly what it might say, with what links, and on what profiles it would be used?

Thanks!

Chris

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I second the need for a 'DNA match but no shared direct line ancestor' type of template. :-)

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A bit wordy but how about this for a start.  Dont have access to a computer at the moment so someone might be able to adapt and pretty it up.

 

  Y-Chromosome DNA Match, but no shared direct ancestor

 

Person-1's ydna results to Person-2 suggests there is a direct paternal relationship, but the exact connection is currently unknown.  The results of the yDNA test of Person-1 and the yDNA test of Person- 2 are a close match. 66/67markers.

 

The most recent common confirmed ancestor in the yDNA line of Person-1 is Person-3 and the yDNA line of Person-2 is Person-4 (optional depending if further data is known, could like to existing profiles with the other template already there)

 

The most likely distant ancestor in the yDNA line of Person-1 is Person-5 and the most likely distant ancestor in the yDNA line of Person-2 is Person-6. (Suggested by a common geographical place or predicted steps and taking account of confirmed ydna).  The reasons for this are:  (common geographical place etc, be brief.  Maybe we could have a list of a few)

 

You may wish to consider alternative genealogies for this profile.  

 

Are you able to contribute to a DNA test to help solve this mystery?  (Add link to DNA test source page) or contact Person-7 (profile manager or alternate interested wikitree profile).

 

 

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I like common Earliest Known Ancestor (EKA) is unknown.

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I believe It should be their most recently shared direct paternal line ancestor is unknown.

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I have no specific preference as long as we all know what we mean by the intent!

Answer 3

Yes that works!  I agree it would be better if it used ess space.  And perhaps a light blue motif/background for Y-DNA and light pink for mtDNA?  

Hopefully most using the template will understand the necessity of matching on haplotypes (25, 37 etc. markers).  There will be some disagreements on what is a match, but there are also disagreements on the validity of some source documents.

I envision a variation of this template could also work for ancestral llines confirmed through autosomal DNA and X chromosome.

Excellent.

Comments

If that blue for boys and pink for girls bit is added, I'd just like to be on the record as wanting that to be optional!

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The blue and pink work well for the background of ancestral charts and in generic silhouette portraits for males and females.  We simply need a clear visual to distinguish Y from mtDNA.

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Check it again: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Roberts-7102

If we decide we want to emphasize the difference between the Y and mt even more, we could adjust the image. This could be changed any time.

Are these the right variables to be using? Will they be sufficient? Before moving on to other templates I want to make sure.

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I love the template. The tighter adjustment on the table looks better.

Let me know if you need help with the style changes. I'd love to help!

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Thanks, Michelle!

Peter, have you experimented with adding this template to other profiles yet, to see how that works in pratice?

All you have to add is this, if it's people in the same line as the example:

{{YDNA Match

| person1 = Roberts-7266

| person2 = Roberts-7085

| common = Roberts-7104

| testURL1 = http://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:DNATests&u=6204666&id=8

| testURL2 = http://www.wikitree.com/index.php?title=Special:DNATests&u=6035205&id=8

| comments = 36/37 markers.

}}

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Hello Chis,

I've played with the template for another Y-DNA tested direct paternal line.  One of the testers is http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lowe-2237

The most difficult part was copying and pasting the testURL1 & 2 information because I did it on an iPad.

I wonder if the templete should be added to the profile of the most recent shared direct paternal line ancestor for the two testers??  If so it would say his direct paternal relationship with himself is confirmed.  Perhaps not a real problem.

Regards, Peter

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Hi Peter,

I'm going to put the URLs on your test list, so that should make them easier to copy and paste. (Or is all copying and pasting hard on an iPad?)

I guess you're right about not including the profile box on the profile of the common ancestor. I edited the instructions at the top of http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Template:YDNA_Match

Chris