Who are these people? (Moockers, Mockers, Moojers, Binet, De Grunchy)

Question

Claartje (Clara) Moockers (Moockers-2 or Moojers-1) is the subject of a long-existing New Netherland merge conflict. She is supposed to have been born in the Netherlands in 1624, 1628, or 1632. The two profiles for her haven't been merged because they are connected to different parents, but none of the parents' profiles are sourced (and the only record for Claartje's life cited on either of Claartje's profiles is the baptism of a daughter in Recife, Brazil, in 1649).

To help clear this merge conflict, can anybody supply meaningful information and sources to substantiate the existence and life details of the following candidates for Claartje's birth family?

• Francios Mockers - first name probably should be Francois or Francis; connected as Claartje's father; said to be born in 1590 in France; son of Benjamin Mockers (born in England in 1565) and Sarah De Grunchy (born in Channel Islands in 1561).
• Robert Gerretse Moockers - connected as Claartje's father; said to be born in 1590
• Thomasse Binet - connected as Claartje's mother; said to be born in France in 1593 and married to Francios Mockers in France; said to have died in "New York, USA".

And it goes without saying that records of Claartje's early life also would be helpful.

ADDED: At one time, one profile for Claartje had  Francois Leseur connected as her father, but that profile was disconnected to allow a merge.

Comments

I'm not sure and not really familiar with or into this family.. but the names sounded familiar could it be possible there were or are two families mixed up or something ? There's a different Post family and they do have a connection with a Francois le Sueur from France...at least that's what is says here..Miner Descent and we also have the family like this at WikiTree..

Francois le Sueur (born in 1625 in Challe Mesnil) with parents Jean Le Sueur and Marye Gruier. He emigrated with his sister Jeanne  to New Amsterdam on 10 Apr 1657 and settled in Flatbush, Long Island, New York in 1657. Francois married Jannatie Hildebrand Pietersen.  they had a daughter Jannetje Lozier (Lesier) (born 22 Aug 1660 in Ulster, NY.)  she married  Jan Jansen Postmael (born in 1655 in Harlingen) His parents were Jan Barentsen and Nieltje van Brenckelen. He and Jannetje Lozier  married in 1675 in Haarlem, New Amsterdam. Jan Post died in 1693 in Kingston, NY. She, after Jan died, married Thomas Ennis  after 1688.

Jan Postmael , was born at Harlingen, in Friesland and he was a Postman by trade.  At the baptism of his first child ( Jan Post) , he was known as Jan Janszen Van Harlingen. When confused with a person with that same 'name'  Jan decided to adopt the name of his profession. etc ...

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Thanks for pointing that out, Bea. It's possible that it's related. The profile https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Le_Sueur-27 is a generation younger than the Francois that is suggested as a parent for Clara, but this other family might somehow be conflated with Clara's family.

Just FYI: Miner Descent is an impressive website -- well-written and nicely illustrated, but I don't trust it as a source. As with many derivative genealogies that don't identify their sources, some of its information is excellent, and some of it is just plain wrong. (I'm rather familiar with this site, as it includes several of my ancestral lines.)

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My pleasure Ellen and yes I know, I mostly will use it for leads and see if things can be confirmed with sources, it's a bit the same as most online genealogies eeh, sometimes very well sourced and sometimes it looks nice but no sources at all, so we will always have to check if things can be confirmed with the actual sources. It was the combination of the names Post and (Francois) le Sueur (Lozier, Lesier) I knew I had seen those names somewhere around here before. :)

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I am a descendant of Adrian and Claritje and a tad confused by the variants in genealogies. I could be wrong in my analyzation of this information but it is my understanding that the naming protocol for that time period was:

Firstborn son= Named after paternal grandfather. Middle name= father's first name + "sen" or "son"

Second son= Named after Maternal grandfather. Middle name= father's first name + "sen" or "son" or mother's maiden name

First daughter= Named after Maternal grandmother. Middle name= father's first name + "ssen"

Second daughter= Named after Paternal grandmother. Middle name= mother's maiden name

Children born after that were named after deceased siblings then other relatives.

Adrian Crijnen= Crijnen is a surname, thus his mother's maiden name. Since his father's name was Adrian and his name was Adrian as reflected by the naming of his firstborn son, this means Adrian Crijnen was named in honor of his recently-deceased oldest brother and given his mother's maiden name for a middle name.

The capture during the Peach Tree War of Adrian, Claritje and their first five children was documented as occurring on September 15, 1655. So who were the five children? Some genealogists believe there was a child before Maritje/Maria Moockers Post. And according to naming protocol that is the only plausible answer. But there is no record of that child which would have had to be a girl who was most-likely born in Netherlands. Maria was christened in Brazil on June 6, 1649. They fled Brazil and arrived in NY in October of 1650. Since Adrian Adrianson was born June 7, 1651 that leaves a window of about 15 months for Magteh/Matilda to be born. So most likely she was born in Brazil or enroute to NY between April and October of 1650 and not christened. With Adrian starting a new job in the southern part of NY it would be highly unlikely they would have travelled upstate when she was born and then return in time. Lysbeth was born in 1654.

Elias was supposedly born in 1655 so either he was the fifth child or he was born in captivity. As the second son he would have been named for Claritje's father. Elias is not a Dutch name but is a derivative of Elijah. The fact that the record shows they were released from captivity with five children could mean that the oldest daughter perhaps did not survive and died during captivity. The documentation stated that upon release Adrian was ill and relocated his family because he was unable to do the job he previously had.

The next child born to them was Marguerita who was born June 6, 1657 in NY. And Francois was born March 3, 1658 in NJ. According to minerdescent.com Francois LeSuer immigrated to Long Island, NY in 1657 and moved again within months to the same Dutch Reformed Church Adrian and Claritje attended, shortly before Francois' birth. He may have been someone they knew but he was not her biological father. And since Elias was most-likely named for her biological father they were free to name Francois after their friend. Then there was Gertrude born August 23, 1663, a second Lysbeth born in 1667 (which means the first Lysbeth died shortly before) and a William born in 1668.

There was a Gertrude Moockers Lenorge/LeRouge who was in Brazil at the same time as Adrian and Claritje.when Maritje/Maria was christened. She had two children born shortly before and after Maria. It is more than likely they were related as sisters or first cousins.  

Anyway... that is what I gleaned from my research. Don't know how accurate it is but I hope it helps

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One additional thought: Since Maria Moockers Post would have been named for Adrian's mother and his middle name was her maiden name, that makes her name Maria Crijnen. There was a Maria Crijnen baptized, not christened, on December 21, 1612 in Netherlands whose father's name was Cornelius. That struck me as odd because Elias could have been misread and is really a shortened form of the last five letters of Cornelius. Could Clarijte's father's first name have been Cornelius? Also... there isn't much on the surname of Moockers. There is however mention of the Dutch surnames of Moock, Meeker and Mooers. Claritje and Adrian had to have had legal paperwork and identification for them to be merchants and relocate with the West India Company to Recife, Brazil where Maria was christened. It is highly unlikely they would have changed their names because of their congregational affiliation with the Dutch Reformed Church. There were hundreds of Dutch that relocated to Recife, Brazil at that time. They would have been known and there would have been no need for new identities. The fact that there was a Gertrude Moockers also there at the same time rather makes this argument sound. Also keep in mind that the farther back one goes in time the less documentation they will find. It was Elizabeth I that began a documented registration of male births for military conscription in England. The Catholic Church as well as the Church of England were at first her primary sources of information. Later other countries began the policy and it eventually became a governmental task in addition to the records kept by the churches for christenings and baptisms. The US census did not begin until 1790 and was done so our government could keep track of immigrants. By 1880 there were enough states in the union that the federal government made it the job of each state to do their own censuses and file a report with them. A flood destroyed the 1890 census so there are twenty years unaccounted for and undocumented. The San Francisco earthquake of 1904 destroyed all governmental records including births, adoptions, deaths and marriages. It is more than likely that not every child of Adrian and Claritje were christened right after birth. There was too much going on and circumstances may not have been optimal. If you stick with the basic naming protocol and reason on the time-line the answers may become clearer. Happy hunting

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After in-depth research and following a timeline I came to the conclusion that I was mistaken on some things I previously posted. It has been a fascinating quantum leap back to the 17th century and the timeline and patronymic naming protocol helped tremendously giving me the focus I needed. I found out why Cornelis Melyn was on the ship with Adriaen, Claartje and two children leaving Netherlands for Staten Island and why the ship was nearly confiscated. I learned why they went to Brazil and why they left. By mapping out the geography and distances between places the timing made much more sense. But the following nugget of gold put everything into prospective.....

In the book "Algemeen Nederlandsch Familieblad Vol 6 on page 77 under the sub-title on page 73 "Baptisms of the Dutch in Brasil 1633-1654" it lists the firstborn son of Adriaen Crynen as Cornelis, making Adriaen's father's name Cornelis. Witnesses are Dhr/Mr. Cornelis Van de Brande and Geertruyt de Moucheron. The information written in Dutch above the names of several individuals listed says that Cornelis had a Brazilian christening certificate from the church 1647-1648 that was not dated and he is now being recorded as a memorial of his birth, christening and death. This now bumps Adriaen Adriaensen down to the second son named for Claartje's father which means there is no father-daughter relationship to Francois LeSueur (1590-1628) who was married to Thomasse Binet. Adriaen and Claartje's 4th son Francoys was named for Francois LeSueur (1625-1671) a friend of the family who attended the same DRC. And it means there are still two unnamed children, one that died after the Peach Tree War and the other before they moved to New Jersey in 1660. One would be a daughter named for Adriaen's mother and the other was most likely a son named Cornelis in honor of his deceased older brother born just before their capture in the Peach Tree War.

There is confliction as to where Adriaen Adriaensen was born and when. Marriage banns were posted so that anyone within the congregation and those who knew them could object if they had a valid reason. Therefore on the marriage bann the congregation affiliation was listed, not where they were born. The same information was listed on the marriage record. That means that at the time of Adriaen Adriaensen's marriage to Catrintje Gerrits he was living in The Hague and affiliated with the church there, and she was affiliated with the church in Wageningnen, Netherlands some 67 miles straight east of The Hague. His death information states that he was 38 when he died on June 10, 1689  making his birth after they arrived on Staten Island, New York in 1651-1652.

In the same book on page 26 and in other translations Maria's christening is documented but without a middle name. So she should not be listed as Maria Moockers Post. It is misleading.

Moockers is not a surname. It is a bad English translation of the Dutch by someone unable to read the writing. On familysearch.org you can view a photo of a document from Rio de Janero, Brazil of a 7/18/1896 marriage that lists a De Silva Moockers as the bride's mother. The actual writing is Emelia de Silva le moridor Franco, which means the bride's mother's name was Emelia de Silva and she was an inhabitant of or originated from France.  A 10/21/1891 marriage lists the bride as Lauria Maria Moockers and the groom as Langfe Antoine Geayrams but the actual writing is a feitor/supervisor by the name of Ann Larson Garcia and the bride's name of Anye Antoini Graziani. The bride's parents are listed as Felippe Soma and Josephine Numitore Frances. The actual writing is Felippe Graziani and Josephine Mairena from France. So pursuing Moockers as Claartje's maiden name is futile as is trying to connect her to the Le Sueurs biologically. Her father's name was Adriaen and her mother's name was most likely Maria.

Answer 1

Ellen, thank you for adding the detached connection to "Francois Le Sueur" as Clara's father.  I believe that Le Sueur is the correct Surname for this entire family, who were French Protestants that lived on the English-ruled island of Jersey (Channel Islands) going back to the 13th Century.  I am not sure where the profile creator (whose WikiTree profile is strangely managed by someone else (!) who has not been active since 2015) got "Mocker" or "Moojer" from.  I am continuing to research that - maybe a Dutch mis-translation of the French name (Le Sueur is from the old French term for "shoemaker" or "cobbler" in English). (Origin: Latin: "Sutor") .

Here is a present-day reference from Jersey that mentions the earliest "Mockers" as having the surname: Le Sueur there. 

https://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/Le_Sueur

For the Huguenot migration project, I will adopt these profiles and see what I can find out about them.  It's interesting to note that apparently these Huguenots went from English-ruled Jersey to the Netherlands and then to English-ruled New Jersey or New York, but until 1673 those American colonies shifted back and forth between Dutch & English rule...

Apparently the "Le Sueur" family is a very-old and somewhat prominent family on the isle of Jersey (note that many old genealogies say "St. Hekter" for "St. Hellier" - capital of Jersey - based on an old misspelling or mis-transcription of a handwritten document).

 

 

 

Comments

So glad to see this information, Chet. The relationship of the meanings of "Le Sueur" and "Moockers" makes a lot of sense. It's likely that the Le Sueur family was often called Moockers after settling in New Netherland. Similarly, there's a family named "Le Comte" that morphed into "de Graaf" (Dutch version of for "count") after settling in New Netherland. I look forward to learning more!

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One more thing: The name Moockers is reportedly found on the baptism record for her daughter who was born in Recife, Brazil, when it was a Dutch colony.

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HI

Yes, I saw that in my research today - Here is a quote:

What we do know is that Adriaen Post, who may have been from The Hague, Netherlands, resided in Brazil in the West India Company's colony with his wife Clara (Claartje) Moockers. Their names are found in the baptism record for Adriaen's daughter Maria who was baptised in Recife Brazil in June 1649. [Source: Doopregister der Hollanders in Brazilie 1633 - 1654] At this baptism Adriaen's patronymic of Crijnen is recorded.  FROM:

http://olivetreegenealogy.blogspot.com/2011/03/debunking-post-family-genealogy-myth.html

The same site has this added by a respondent:
              I and my wife, personally viewed records in the Amsterdam Maritime Museum, showing that Capt Adrien Post, wife, 2 children sailed 15 May 1650 aboard the schip "Nieu Neerlandtsche Fortuyn". Schipper: Daniel Michaelsen. "Schip en laden confisquerd" in Rhode Island, at an Island now known as "Dutch Island". They gained release of the the ship and cargo, and arrived on Staten Island, NY in December of 1650. On March 17, 1659 their son Francois (Frans) was baptized in the Dutch Reformed church in NY. I'm directly descended from Francois. BTW: Your research in the colony in Brazil should show you that there was a Francois Post there, as well as another Post, married to a woman whose maiden name was also Moockers (pronounced 'Mockers', according to an acquaintance in the NY Dutch Embassy).

I am wondering if Moockers (I can find no "meaning" in Dutch; Mooijers, means "best" or "prettiest") could be a married name ( if Clara could have had a 1st husband before A. Post -?).  I can find NO background or any data for a Robert Gerretse Moocker as one WT profile for Clara states was her father. 

Are you a member of Ancestry.com ?  I am not and so any Ancestry sources (or Heritage.com) are closed to me - there seem to be some possible "clues" there but I cannot be sure. 

There definitely was a Le Sueur Protestant family from St. Hellier and Trinity, Jersey Island, and Benjamin Le Sueur married Sarah Grundy (the "de" could be accurate or added to show the family noble extraction - the Jersey sources indicate the Le Sueurs married into gentry... How to prove (or disprove) that Francois Le Sueur had a daughter Clara who later married Adriaen Post, went to Brazil, and then to New Netherland, is another story.  There may be 2 different families or not.  I could not find any clear references, alas. 

 

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Here is the baptism transcript of a daughter Maria, June6, 1649 in Recife with parents Adriaen Crijnen Post and Clara Moockers. And the actual baptism registration in the Amsterdam Stadsarchief here.

Recife Baptisms 1633-1654 were indexed by Cor Snabel here

 

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Hi Chet, 

you asked where the name Moockers perhaps was coming from, I found this description for Mockers in: ''Bedevaart naar Jerusalem in 1525 Arent Willemsz'' editie C.J. Gonnet

mockers:  leidslieden, gidsen, ezeldrijvers or in English leaders, guides, donkey drivers (herders) ? 

Not sure if it has anything to do with their last name, but well. And amazing to see ho many sources you found Ellen and Jan woohoo :D 

Answer 2

I found some additional "Moockers" records from Recife, via Ancestry.com. Pasting these into one box at a time, because the Ancestry interface I'm copying from isn't real compatible with G2G:

Name:	Willemyna Moockers Lenorge
Gender:	Female
Baptism Date:	28 mai 1651 (28 May 1651)
Baptism Place:	Dutch Reformed Church,Recife,Pernambuco,Brazil
Father:	Pieter Lenorge
Mother:	Geertruyt Moockers
FHL Film Number:	Q981.3V2W

Comments

Name:	Daniel Moockers Rouge
Gender:	Male
Baptism Date:	4 jun 1653
Baptism Place:	Dutch Reformed Church,Recife,Pernambuco,Brazil
Father:	Pieter Le Rouge
Mother:	Geertruyt Moockers
FHL Film Number:	Q981.3V2W

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And there are two additional entries for Geertruyt Mockers/Moockers in the index at http://brazilindex.pbworks.com/w/page/12076148/Mi%C2%A0-%C2%A0My that Jan pointed out.

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And here the original registration for Willemijna. 379: Archief van de Nederlandse Hervormde Kerk; Classis Amsterdam: 211 Register van gedoopten in Recife en omgeving 1633 - 1654

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And Daniel's. And Geertruijt's sponsoring, September 11, 1652 with Pieter also sponsoring.

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Thanks, Jan!

I can seldom get the viewer on the website to operate properly (I see a blank screen with a message that says "wachten op laden van viewer (status: LOADED)"). Do the original records include Moockers as a second name for these children? Does that suggest that some special significance was attached to that particular family name?

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Entry for Maria 1649:

https://www.wikitree.com/photo/png/Terink-1

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And the other ones:

Willemijna: https://www.wikitree.com/photo/png/Terink-1-1

Daniel: https://www.wikitree.com/photo/png/Terink-1-2

Geertruijt sponsoring: https://www.wikitree.com/photo/png/Terink-1-3

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Thanks, Jan.

Could you please associate those images with a free-space page, or maybe with the profile of one of these Moockers? The images are private at the moment because they are associated only with your non-Public profile.

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Oops, sorry Ellen, didn't think. Attached all images now to Maria's profile.

And no, Moockers was not a second name in any of these baptism registrations.

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Thanks. It's "interesting" that the transcribers chose to give the baptized children a second name of Moockers.

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Well, not all transcribers did that. I don't know about Ancestry transcribers, but the Dutch C.J. Wasch whose transcriptions were published in Algemeen Nederlandsch familieblad, Volumes 5 and 6 certainly did not.

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Just one more reason not to trust Ancestry.   :-(

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I am glad the Dutch have the luxury of a overwhelming number of free primary resources, so no need for Ancestry...

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Ellen, about viewing the scans in the amsterdam archive..Normally that should be ok and shortly after that message the image (scan) should appear, if it doesn't perhaps it's because you have to approve or activate the flash plugin ? (if that's blocked you can't view the scans..)

Answer 3

Ancestry has some Jersey records online, including images. I don't know how complete their collection is (I assume that Jersey has rather complete records). They are full of the name Francois Le Sueur, including:

Baptism, St Helier, Jersey, 30 Oct 1603. Son of Benjamin (or Beniamin) and Sara Le Sueur - https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/60860/45219_1831109388_0664-00032

Burial, 21 Sep 1647, St Martin, Jersey - https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/60860/45219_1831109388_0605-0012

Marriage to Thomasse Bruer, 19 Apr 1637 - St Helier, Jersey - https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/60860/45219_1831109388_0663-00029 - Note resemblance of her name to "Thomasse Binet," but this marriage is too late to be Clara's parents if Clara had a child in 1649.

Comments

That baptism record for Francois, son of Benjamin and Sara, resembles the parent connections on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Mockers-2

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I agree, Ellen; I think that Benjamin and Sara(h) were really named Le Sueur as per the Jersey web site I referenced earlier.  Their existence and marriage in Jersey seems established.   What is NOT certain is that they were grandparents (via son Francois / Francis) of the Clara "Moockers" who married Adriaen Post and had a child in Brazil in 1649 - that is where the connections on various genealogy sites fail to "connect".

Thank you to Jan for the Ancestry and Brazilian document references.

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Yes, it doesn't look like we can reach any firm conclusions on Clara's origins, but thanks to insights and research by  you and Jan, I think we'll be able to merge her profiles and present a sensible discussion of the "stories" of her origins -- with links (but not connections) to the relevant profiles.

Answer 4

I can provide the following hints. I have a record of Brazil Select Baptisms  (Ancestry.com) for Claretje:

Brazil Select Baptisms 1688-1935

Clara Moockers

Gender: Female

Spouse: Adriaen Crijnen Post

Child: Maria Moockers Post

While this might seem strange - it might not be. My ancestor, Jesse de Forest, led a colony of Protestant Walloons to the New World. On July 1, 1623, they left Leyden and sailed for the Amazon as trade routes had been established already in Guiana. They sailed in the "Pigeon" alongside the "Mackerel". The Mackerel was intended to sail on to New Netherland and did arrive in May 1624.

While I do not have a passenger list at hand for the members aboard both ships, it may be likely that Claertje's parents were aboard.

Claertje's husband, Capt. Adriaen Crijnen Post's family had an interesting history. They lived in Recife, Brazil which was another of the Company's outposts there. The Portuguese took over in 1654.

Adriaen's family sailed for New Amsterdam on June 30, 1650.

I speculate that the Moocker (Mocker) family was living in close proximity to these early settlers and ultimately joined the large Dutch settlement in New Amsterdam.

It may be to the original voyage of Jesse de Forest we must look to uncover Claertje's parents.

I have not been able to add the Jesse de Forest line as I have not been approved for the pre-1500 Project group.

Patty Almond

Miller_Rinehimer-1